[Reader-list] Fwd: <nettime> Oekonux: Interview with Stefan Merten

[Shuddhabrata Sengupta]

Dear All,

This is my first posting on this list, I have been a sly watcher form the 
sidelines till now. But enjoy the occasionall sparks of life. Actually this 
is not my own writing,. but something I am borrowing from the web to share 
with us all. SOme fo how have a history with Marxism and some of us have a 
future with free software. here is something that is a bit of both;;;


An interview by Geert on some people in Germany trying to find a relation 
between free software and Marxism, and trying to work on the necessary 
engineering needed to formulate the concepts of a GPL model for society in 
general. Interesting.



>Interview with Stefan Merten
>By Geert Lovink
>
>Oekonux is a radical German mailinglist discussing free software from
>green-alternative and post-Marxist perspectives. The tone on the list is
>unusually open, not to say utopian. There is a true sense of possibilities
>felt: a free software revolution; revolution through free software. This
>weekend the Oekonux list is holding its first conference, in the grey,
>industrial city of Dortmund. Stefan Merten is the initiator and moderator
>of the list and co-organizer of the upcoming conference.
>
>GL: Could you tell us the history and context of the Oekonux list and
>OpenTheory site that you are running?
>
>SM: Your question gives me the nice opportunity to correct a rather common
>misunderstanding. I, Stefan *Merten*, am maintaining the Oekonux project,
>while Stefan *Meretz* maintains OpenTheory. Though both of us are involved
>in the other project, respectively, though we often have similar views,
>and though our names are very similar, we are two different persons with
>different backgrounds.
>
>But now for the history and context of the Oekonux list and project.
>Personally I had the idea that Free Software is something very special and
>may have a big potential for a different society beyond labor, money,
>exchange - in short: capitalism - in 1998. In September 1998 I tried to
>make that an issue on the Krisis list. However, that didn't work since
>next to nobody was interested.
>
>In July 1999 there was the "Wizard of Open Source"
>(`http://www.mikro.org/Events/OS/frameset_d.html?Submit=deutsch')
>conference in Berlin. I attended that conference and was especially
>interested in the topic "Neue Ökonomie?" ("New economy?"). However, on the
>background of the idea mentioned above, I found the talks presented there
>not very interesting. After the talks I took the opportunity to organize a
>spontaneous BOF session and luckily it worked well. So we sat there with
>about 20 people and discussed the thoughts presented in the talks. At the
>end I asked all the people at the BOF session to give me their e-mail
>address.
>
>After the WOS conference the organizers of the conference (Mikro,
>`http://www.mikro.org/') created a mailing list for us - and that was the
>birth of the Oekonux (Oekonux stands for "OEKOnomie" and "liNUX") mailing
>list. From the start we had a very interesting discussion with some silent
>periods but usually rather much traffic. The atmosphere on the list is
>very pleasant and flames are nearly unknown. The discussion is focussed on
>content and covers a rather big number of topics. At the moment we have
>about 160 subscribers at `liste at oekonux.de'. Though the traffic is quite
>high we have nearly no unsubscribe messages which I think is a proof for
>the quality of the list.
>
>As far as I can see the subscribers come from a quite wide range of
>thinking traditions and areas of interest. Though of course they all share
>a common interest in political thinking, there are people from the Free
>Software and Hardware area as well as hard core political people as well
>as people with a main interest in culture and so on. Thinking about one
>and a half year back, our discussion made big advances and though we have
>some very skeptical people on the list, today there seems to be a common
>sense and common understanding, that we might have a very valid and
>important point.
>
>In December 1999 I created the web site `www.oekonux.de'. It's main
>purpose is to archive the mailing list. Of course some material created in
>the realm of the project is presented there also as well as a link list
>listing links to web sites and pages relevant to our discussion in some
>way. There is also an English / international part of the project
>(`www.oekonux.org' archiving `list-en at oekonux.org'), which, however, is
>nearly non-existent until today. I find this a pity but unfortunately
>until now there is nobody with enough free time and energy to give this
>part a real start. So until today all the material is in German. In June
>2000 I created another mailing list (`projekt at oekonux.de') which is
>concerned with the organization of the project. Meanwhile we have some
>people there who are really working and so reduce my personal load and
>responsibility for the project.
>
>Currently the project team is mainly concerned with the first Oekonux
>conference (`http://www.oekonux-konferenz.de/') we will have from April
>28-30, 2001 in Dortmund. The conference's main goal is to bring together
>people from different areas all interested in the principles of Free
>Software and are thinking about possible consequences these principles may
>have in their particular area. We'll have people from the Free Software
>movement, political persons, people with a scientific background, people
>interested in cultural things, people involved in Free Hardware projects
>and so on. I think it'll be a very exciting conference and another
>milestone in the way we and - if we're not completely wrong - the whole
>world is going.
>
>GL: The relation between Marxism and open source is a highly debated topic
>on Oekonux. For some this might be a unusual combination. There are even
>discussions about general principles of a "GPL society", extending the
>legal framework of free software into a variety of social and economic
>fields. That's pretty ambitious, not to utopian, with the fall of the
>Berlin Wall a little over a decade ago. Don't you think that it would be
>better to debunk failed leftist principles than to come up with new ones?
>
>SM: The question is what leftist principles are. Personally, I think Marx
>created a very good and still very valid analysis of capitalism. Of course
>some of his thoughts must be brought into a contemporary perspective, but
>that doesn't make them worthless. However, rethinking Marx in the
>framework of the world is of today is something leftists of all currents
>seldom do. In the history of workers movement there are very few
>exceptions and most currents concentrated on other things. Leninism and
>Stalinism had further negative influence on rethinking Marx in an adequate
>way. Even the people calling themselves "Marxians" are rarely very
>interesting. My main criticism to the very most of those leftist (Marxian)
>currents in the past is there lack of a utopia. The "utopia" they had was
>not more than an improved labor society rather similar to the one they
>lived in.
>
>Well, of course this analysis is very shortened and omits a number of
>points, but to defend earlier leftist currents, I think they had one big
>disadvantage: They didn't live at the decay of capitalism where the new
>society already starts to raise its head. In Oekonux there is a common
>sense, that Free Software might be exactly this: an early form of the new
>society embedded in the old society. (We call this new society "GPL
>society" to have a word for this new thing we're trying to explore.) And
>if you have some knowledge about Marx' theory you will note, that a lot of
>phenomena fit perfectly into his analysis of capitalism and its intrinsic
>contradictions which it can't overcome.
>
>GL: Some on the Oekonux list seem close to the "Krisis group" around the
>'apocalyptic' Marxist critic Robert Kurz. Could you explain to outsiders,
>not familiar with contemporary German Marxist currents, Kurz's position
>and what he has got to do with Linux, open source and the network society?
>
>SM: Well, the thinking of the Krisis group is manifold and not easy to
>describe in a few sentences. They are not widely accepted in the German
>leftist scene. In fact there are some people which you might call fans and
>there is a big number of people which with some right you might call
>enemies. However, my personal impression is, that the enemies of the
>Krisis group mainly don't understand what the Krisis people are talking
>about. This is a real pity because of this the Krisis people have nearly
>no one to discuss with besides themselves.
>
>May be the Krisis group's main position basing many of the others is, that
>capitalism is on its decay because the basic movement of making money from
>labor works less and less. Of course this doesn't mean that capitalism
>must end soon. Of course capitalism may continue to exist for hundred of
>years. But it won't ever be able to hold its old promises of wealth for
>all.
>
>In my opinion meanwhile this is clearly visible even in our Western
>societies and I find it astonishing how good leftists are in defending
>capitalism and expecting a long life of it. However, the reality of
>capitalism is apocalyptic - take the climate catastrophe as one of the
>most visible and dangerous signs. In some way it's not fair to call the
>Krisis position "apocalyptic" just because they say how things are.
>
>The relation of the Krisis group to Free Software is non-existent. I tried
>to talk with Robert Kurz about that once in a while a few years ago, but
>learned that this is simply something he isn't concerned with and doesn't
>know anything about. However, at the start of December 2000 there was a
>workshop with Stefan Meretz and Robert Kurz in Dortmund, which I attended
>as well. This was the first time I think Robert Kurz was really confronted
>with the thoughts discussed in Oekonux and I think he understood a number
>of points. Maybe there are new developments to expect.
>
>GL: Development of open source software seems to be particularly
>successful amongst Germans, so it seems. Statistically, Germans come
>second after the Americans. Would you know of any specific cultural
>explanation?
>
>SM: First of all I question how meaningful the figure is as a basis for
>your question. Germany is the country with the biggest population in
>Europe. To have a really meaningful figure you need to calculate the
>number of German free software developers per capita of the German
>population and compare that with the same figures for other countries.
>
>Besides that I guess that the share of people with academic education is
>quite high in relation to some other European countries which are among
>the most industrialized countries of the world. In addition the English
>language is pretty well known in Germany - opposed to e.g. Japan. So the
>preconditions in Germany to enter the free software scene are relatively
>good and the high absolute numbers simply may be a result of these good
>preconditions.
>
>GL: It strikes me that participants on the Oekonux list are not that much
>worried about attempts of certain IT-companies such as IBM to gain control
>over the production of open source software. Could you explain this
>worry-less optimism?
>
>SM: Well, I guess most people on the Oekonux list don't recognize IBM's
>activities as to gain control over the free software scene. I think IBM
>and some other companies simply start to understand, that they should
>better not slaughter the cow they want to milk in the future. Many of
>these companies are mainly hardware manufacturers or sell services and
>they have their own good reasons to have a flourishing free software
>scene. They seem to understand that they may break this with their
>activities if they are not careful.
>
>On the other hand in the past companies, who tried to exploit the free
>software scene solely for their own advantage, had some bad experiences.
>For instance the free software scene didn't like the activities of Corel
>when they started to create their own distribution. Until now to my
>knowledge at least no big player has been able to really betray the free
>software scene. This is a result of the power the free software scene
>itself already has today.
>
>GL: Even on the Oekonux list the interests seem to be very much focused on
>open source related issues and not so much to create a wider network. Many
>computer users are saying that open source will only become a success if
>it is able to transcend the (male) geek culture of software engineering,
>making alliances with interface designers, activists and artists,
>cross-linking with broader cyber-cultures such as the games communities.
>Do you think that the withdrawal into the technical is only a temporary
>phenomena? When is the free software/open source movement ready to break
>out?
>
>SM: IMHO on the Oekonux list we are actively trying to see the whole
>picture. The conference has its focus on exactly that: Bringing together
>people from as many professions as possible who are all interested in the
>model of free development the free software is only the most visible
>example of. On the other hand we are talking of a new model of goods
>production in general, which transcends the industrial model. So it is
>clear, that a big part of the picture has to be technical and that people
>with knowledge in engineering of any kind play an important role in that
>picture.
>
>GL: Yes, this is what you and others call the "GPL society." Could you
>explain this? Isn't free software and open source more like a source of
>inspiration and metaphor rather than a model for the entire society with
>all its complex relations? The digital economy itself is everything but
>open source. The Internet Economy is all about accumulating intellectual
>property. What makes you think that the free/open source models can go
>beyond the realm of software production?
>
>SM: With GPL society we describe a society beyond capitalism. The main
>difference is, that this society is no longer based on exchange and
>exchange value and thus the term labor doesn't make much sense any longer.
>Instead the basis of this new society will be the individual
>self-unfolding ("Selbstenftaltung") combined with self-organization and
>global cooperation. Goods in this society are not sold but simply
>available and taken by those who need them. Of course such a society is
>difficult to imagine for people who grew up with only money on their mind.
>
>To my knowledge the historical new thing of this concept is, that the GPL
>society will transcend the industrial model of production into a new form,
>which allows human potential to really flourish. In particular the work
>machines are doing is actually used for setting people free in the sense
>that the machines do the necessary things while humans can be artists,
>engineers, ... whatever they like. This way the permanently rising
>productivity no longer results in the curse of unemployment but in the
>benediction of freedom from the necessity for mankind. A world where the
>individual freedom of each single person is the precondition for the
>freedom of all.
>
>These aspects of absence of exchange value (i.e. money), self-unfolding,
>self-organization, and global cooperation are the ones in the Oekonux
>project we recognize in the principles of free software development.
>Indeed many people on the Oekonux list think free software is a germ form
>of the GPL society. Insofar it is much more than a metaphor, because the
>analysis of the phenomenon of free software constantly brings up new
>aspects which often can be transformed into a different organization of a
>society very well. Actually I'm astonished over and over again how good
>this works.
>
>Of course we don't have a full-blown concept in our drawers how the new
>society will look like - and we better should not have such a drawing
>table model IMHO. Of course today there are many questions which can't be
>answered honestly. However, it is possible to think about this GPL society
>and which trends in the presence may extend and lead us into this GPL
>society. Indeed given the frame work of Oekonux you can find a number of
>aspects already existing today, which may also be seen as germ forms. For
>instance, NGOs share a number of interesting aspects with the development
>of free software and may be seen as a non-technical counterpart among the
>germ forms for the GPL society. And even in the midst of capitalism you
>can see how the production process more and more depends on information.
>Today the material side of material production is rather unimportant even
>in capitalism. And information is something very different from the
>material world simply by the fact that you can copy it without losing the
>original.
>
>What is known as the new/Internet/digital economy is indeed the plain old
>money economy on new territories. What this economy does is to try to make
>profit from things which are inherently not profitable.
>
>The very basis for any profit is scarcity. Since the invention of
>computers and particularly the Internet, however, scarcity of digital
>information is difficult to keep. Once a digital information has been
>produced it is reproducible with extremely marginal cost. This is the
>reason why information industries of all kinds are making such a fuss
>about intellectual property rights: IPRs could make digital information a
>scarce good you then can make profit with. Personally I think the
>technical means of reproduction, which meanwhile are distributed among
>millions of households, opened the bottle, the ghost is out and nothing
>will be able to put it back in there.
>
>Take for instance the freely available music files Napster started to
>establish. The music industry may destroy Napster but what for? The clones
>and even better, non-centralized ideas are already there and these things
>will survive everything - even a hoard of hungry lawyers.
>
>However, there is a even more fundamental reason why I think the free
>production of information and in the end of free material goods as well
>will overcome societies based on exchange: They simply produce better
>goods. You can see that with free software and there are more and older
>examples proofing that the free flow of information results in better
>products. Science and cooking recipes both are good examples IMHO.
>Particularly the cooking recipes show how useful global cooperation and
>sharing of information is. As well as capitalism with its industrial model
>was able to deliver better products than the former feudalistic models and
>therefore overcame feudalism, free production of goods will overcome the
>former model of capitalism.
>
>But wait a minute. I'm not saying that these trends will become dominant
>all by themselves. IMHO they are only potentials humans must actively put
>forward to transform the world into something better. That's the deepest
>reason I think the Oekonux project is not only useful but ultimately
>needed.
>
>GL: What would you advice new media artists to do if they want to get
>involved into free software but find it too hard to learn programming
>themselves? How do you think the gap between those who program and those
>who don't should be dealt with? Should everyone become a technician?
>That's not very likely to happen. Many people simply look at the available
>free/open source software and conclude that there is almost nothing ready
>to be used. There are no drivers available etc. In part this is a
>prejudice, but anyway, it is the common attitude, even of those who have
>worked with computers for decades. How could they be convinced?
>
>SM: Well, the idea of free information goods is not limited to software at
>all. Every piece of information possible to represent as bits is instantly
>subject to exactly the same form of free development as software is. So my
>advice to media artists who are interested in the principles of free
>software is to set up free art projects, which make possible the
>fundamental principles of free software (absence of exchange value,
>self-unfolding, self-organization, global cooperation). There are already
>a number of them out in the Internet e.g. for writing and music. As long
>as the free art fits onto a computer monitor or another computer device,
>there are next to no limitations given the broad availability of web space
>at next to zero price.
>
>What can be done about prejudices - good question. And it's a even better
>one when M$ starts demonizing free software. I think the best what can be
>done is to confront people with reality and facts. Today even for a person
>used to Windows it's no problem to use a Gnu/Linux system for the same
>office work s/he does on M$ products. Take KDE and StarOffice and you will
>notice only a few minor differences. Well, a major difference you may
>notice: The system is far more stable than say for instance M$ Word on
>Windows.
>
>Actually today IMHO for a lot of computer users there is no technical
>reason not to use free software. Most things are readily available and I
>know a number of people who are interested amateurs who had no problem to
>install e.g. a SuSE distribution on their computer. And if you won't do
>that yourself, it's likely, that you'll find a Gnu/Linux enthusiast in
>your environment who will hurry to install whatever you need.
>
>GL: Do you have free software projects, which are under way at the moment,
>that you personally particularly like?
>
>SM: Not really. Personally I'm using a number of free programs: Emacs,
>Perl, gmake, CVS, SDF, TkDesk, fvwm2, StarOffice, Netscape (which is not
>really free) a hell lot of standard Gnu/Linux tools, and so on.
>Unfortunately I don't find the time to offer my software to the world.
>It's a pity :-( .
>
>Well, I'm keen to see what the GPL-ization of StarOffice / OpenOffice will
>bring. Actually I'd had some wishes about a integration with command line
>oriented processing of data.
>
>GL: Could you tell us what the main discussion in Dortmund is going to be
>and what outcome you would like to see?
>
>SM: [laughing] Fortunately not! In Dortmund we'll have a very broad
>spectrum of people, and to me it's exciting to think of the many, many
>discussions which for sure will take place there. Personally I hope, that
>I'm not too loaded with organizational work so I'll have a chance to
>attend some talks and workshops.
>
>Of course I would appreciate if the conference is able to spread our ideas
>a bit more and to make them fruitful for others as well as the opportunity
>to take into account new thoughts, perspectives and ideas from others.
>Given the big attention the conference has got during the last few months
>I think the plain existence of the conference alone has already done part
>of the work.
>
>---
>
>Related URLs:
>
>Website of the Oekonux list: www.oekonux.org
>Oekonux Dortmund conference: www.oekonux-konferenz.de/
>Wizard of OS, Berlin conference: www.mikro.org/wos
>(the second WOS will be held from 11-13 October, 2001)
>The Open Theory site: www.opentheory.org
>Krisis Group ("Critique of the Commodity Society") www.krisis.org
>
>
>
>
>
>


Shuddhabrata Sengupta
SARAI: The New Media Initiative
Centre for the Study of Developing Societies
29, Rajpur Road, Delhi 110 052, India
www.sarai.net