[Reader-list] God still doesn't want us.

Jaswinder Singh Kohli jskohli at fig.org
Fri Dec 20 14:31:21 IST 2002

Cyril Gupta wrote:

> More Free Speech.
> You said...
> Yeah we all need that, BUT freedom to do what, deicide yourself
> If you were alllowed kill, etc...
> question you may ask, why would you kill,
> Say you dont' have food to eat and the other person is eating like helll
> What will you do, snatch, may require what you didnt' wanted to do...
> My view...
> The word 'Freedom' does not imply lawlessness. Don't be mistaken, 'Freedom'
> actually means that you are not oppressed by un-just rules and regulations
> that hurt your basic rights and you have the basic resources needed to live
> your life your way (Someone living below the poverty line is hardly free).
> When I said 'Freedom', I definitely didn't mean lawlessness. That should
> have been obvious

Law (what it is iz again, constraints), are you really free
It should have been not freedom then, something more appropriate
called restricted independence, unbounded bounds.

What is just and unjust, as the defination will be completely diff.
for two diff. persons, What may be unjust for you, may be just
for me, background, thinking and knowledge is the limiting factor

take an example of Stephen Hawking, when he gave lecture about the
big bang and his theories on BlackHole in some  country i dont' remember,
after he ended POP John Paul, said in the speech, WE SHOULD NOT

So as you can see the, different views of two people

> You said...
> BTW there was a research conducted around 60's in Europe
> why the crime rate is HIGH, every one presented there views
> scientists concluded that illiteracy is the reason, So most of the
> governtments deicided to educate people, increase the literacy rate
> After 10-20 yrs what happened with literacy over 200% increase in
> CRime rate..
> My view...
> First, literacy may not be the only of the rise in crime rate. There might
> be some other social or economical factors responsible for this.  What you
> have presented is just a stat, it doesn't prove that Literacy caused the
> rise in crime rate. In fact it isn't even successful in establishing any
> sort of relationship. It's just a stat. I might as well say that in 60s the
> people were good, and now people are twice as bad, it's the hole in the
> ozone layer.

Yeah, it is just a stat, but when did in say that literacy caused the crime rate
increase, But it was the way it was imparted.

BTW just think how literacy increased crime rate......
A person if he tried to steal something , got caught because of
fingeprints, DNA, etc...... many possibilities, But when you are intelligent
and logical enough, you can by pass alll thses measures.
This is what mostly happened, prev. they did soemthing wrong
they got caught and now intelligent enough, lets do it again....

So teaching should be controlled, besides imparting just writing, reading
thinking, Philosophy should be part of course

> Secondly, literacy is the capability to read & write. I'd to like to
> emphasize on education in which the person is also taught social skills,
> responsibility and vocational skills.

You taught a guy everything , social skills, responsibility, and vocational
skills, now he knows a lot, BUT what social skills, responsibility, vocational
skills mean toi that guy if he is unemplyed
youth, Why should he refrain himself from doing anything
Good or Bad, because his thinking may be different, as when thinking is
differernt, difference in opinions, what does differnce in opinions lead to

All this social, vocational, etc... stuff loooks good in a economy which can
satiisfy all. Everyone has means to stand by, if you are not able to get food
why would  you even bother to think about being social, when becoming
anti-social will help you get foood

> Thirdly, Spiritualism is not going to help prevent crime. Had it helped
> there would have been no crimes in medieval India when we had a sort of
> spiritual revolution. Crimes can be prevented 1) By curbing crime-prone
> individuals 2) By removing the need to commit the crime 3) By ensuring
> speedy justice.

What about ancient India, it is due to wronf interpretations, difference in opinions
If the teaching is not right, and complete crime can never be prevented. You may
know this,
"Neem Hakeem Khatraye Jaan"
Curbing Crime prone indviduals, why letting them become crime prone at
the first place,  wont' spiritualism help here...

> You said...
> Not at all, rather we are devoting it a lot less than it requires.
> We are doing it alll wrong, we are reading it, Instead
> listen to what it means, rather than listening to what it reads.
> My view...
> I do not know what you mean by 'listen to what it means, rather than listen
> to what it reads.' I have heard enough religious people on TV and in
> person, and they all mouth the same 10-20 cliches. A giant load of bull if
> you ask me. Why don't we concentrate on the progress of our families and
> our country instead?

You should learn to get deep into the words, get thier meaning instead of
just reading em'. People on TV, great going in completely wrong direction.

I can't say anything in here , because all that i say will be limited to my own religion
because i have never looked beyond, feel there there is more than enough in there
to be searched for by me, if ever i do that.

> You said...
> What is GOD? , trying to answere that ques. is not easy.
> No comments in here, my views differ drastically from everyone
> here, If believer or not...
> My view...
> What is God? Or is there a God? Try to find answers now and you will end up
> answering the question  the same way that the ancients answered 'Why do we
> have day & night' and come up with gems like 'The sun revolves around the
> Earth', 'The Earth is flat' etc. And if you are fanatically obsessed with
> your beliefs, you will want to burn the heretics. Instead, work towards
> true knowledge. The fact is, there are no answers embedded in your heart.
> At least they're not the right answers.

That is itself my point, i dont treat God as any being that need to be worshiped
or whatever, it is pure and true knowledge, nothing less nothing more, that is what
is left for people to find out. that is what i believe, God is there because knowledge
is here, to be more techy[ B-) ]  God is encrypted knoledge with the key inside every
Human, but they just ignore it and try Brute Forcing, ignoring the fact that the encryption
is "infinte bit".

> You said...
> Religion is there for the people without knowledge, to give them what
> they lack,
> Completely wrong you are, as more knowledge means more relevance of
> religion..., as an eXample from "Guru Granth Sahib Ji" if you are familier with
> is the HOly book of Sikhs..
> Around 450 yrs ago, it was written(started though), says
> "Patala Paataal lakh akaasa akaash"
> means there are uncountable more Earth's and sky's
> What has science just proved lately.
> there are numerous more examples that if you try to go through the
> book will know, and not even a single phrase is there which has been
> said it is wrong.
> My view...
> I don't intend to talk about any particular religion, but religion as a
> whole. We should attempt to make sure that this discussion does not center
> about any particular religions.
> Anyway, like I said earlier, our wise-men interpret fantastic things from
> the pages of our religious texts. Sometimes, those things may not even be
> what the author wrote. And yeah, science has not proved that there are
> lakhs of Earths and Skies. There are 'Planets'. 'Eaths and Skies' is very
> inaccurate as many of them don't even have an atmosphere, and no other
> planet has known to contain life . Why didn't the religious text use the
> correct word if the author was all knowing? Most religious texts are
> stories, and poetry.

what do you mean by atmosphere
Jupiter has an atmosphere, what methane, Suphurc acid clouds
every planet has one, Science primer is what you need.
Earths' atmosphere is suited tfor Human Beings, may be Jupiters' atm.
may be suited for diff, kind of bacteria, (again living creatures)
Now here is where i call, incomplete knowledge is usually wrong.
and what making it worse is you are limited the possibilities that may
arise out of it.

Now every now and then, you hear(may be not if you dont' care a
darn about science). That they found a abacteraia living in 10 Kms'
under water no oxygen, ontly methane etc...

The bacterias' atmosphere is what, water, darkness(not light there)
methane, heat(1000's of degreees), heavy pressure (1000 times
on earth surphace), What do you expect yourself you live there,
Now you see change your defination of Atmospehere.

Correct word, aah, now you want everything done for you,
you want the food to placed in your mouth while you are sleeping
and pushed inside stomach with a rod [ :)) ] for digestion.

Find the key to encryptions that is what it means.....
Key is what you have to find.

> You said...
> Again wrong, Spiritualism is not one of there goals.....
> without religion there is no Spiritualism
> without Spiritualism there is no knowledge,
> Without knowledge there is no life,
> My view...
> Why is spiritualism a Goal? Who made it a Goal? What benefits do we get by
> moving towards Spiritualism? Why isn't a better life a goal? Why isn't
> social growth a goal? Can you please DEFINE Spiritualism?

Spiritualism is not a goal, it was never a goal, Spiritualism is  just a
stop in between the goal of knowledge and life, that stop you shouldn't
stop at but shouldn't ignore either.

Social Growth comes into question when you have attained life,
knowledge, when you don't have both, Social life without  life
doesnot exist

Defining that is posssibly most difficult for me, i just can;t find the

> You said...
> It is raining you need water to drink, you have an empty bowl
> But what if you keep bowl upside down rain wont' fall in it
> same is the case of mind, if you keep your mind closed,
> letting nothing in.
> My view...
> This an example of what a religious leader would say in this situation. Why
> is that, that most of us are so easily impressed by the clever use of
> language. Why do we find crafty adages, metaphors and  comparisons somehow
> enlightening? The mind is not a Bowl, and religion is not rain. These are
> just fancy words. Why can't the issue be discussed in all honesty?
> The fact is, I have kept my mind open. My mind would have been closed, had
> I believed that God is the reason and solution for all things, like my
> grandma did (She prayed for 2 hours everyday during her entire life). My
> mind would have been closed had I blindly believed what the religious texts
> and religious leaders told me. My mind would have been closed had I not
> dared to challenge the authority of God on our lives, accepting just like
> everybody else that we are puppets in his game.
> Open mind is about accepting new ideas, challenging rotting beliefs.

That's quite right , i tooo try to question every belief i have, i atleast donot
folllow them with my eyes wide shut.
Again same problem comes, that whatever i say, will be limited to my religion.

Why would you want to challenge the authorty of God,
Just question what the people say, what has God told you that you dont'
liked or believed, whatever religious stuff comes around mee, i just don't
take it, think about it, and then accept it , trying doing the same.

Open Mind is not accepting every new idea, challenging rotting beliefs

But what if those beliefs are not rotting but are smelling great, but are
put near a rotting people, The people are smelling bad, who may be imparting
those beleifs;' but may be not the religion, may be not the God.

> My bowl my friend, is right side up.

May be mine is too.

> You said...
> Don't expect to see the light at end of the tunnel, until
> the other end is a straight line. You need to read, learn deep
> to admire religion..
> My view...
> I have read, and I have seen and my disdain for religion grows with time

That is what i said, the pain will grow if you want it tooo, if you try too
you can change back to love if you try to question the religion,
All your answere within yourslef, just try to find them, searching and
thinking is the key,

> You said...
> I believe in myself, my quantum self, in my molecules, in my atoms
> But DAMN where did they come from.
> Philosophy is not way of life, it is life....
> My view...
> How do you know that GOD is the right answer to your question? Just because
> a religious text says so? And you'd probably believe that religious texts
> are written by divinity. Have you ever, ever thought of questioning your
> beliefs. If you have not, how can you say your viewpoint is
> balanced/accurate. Most of us are like that, born in a particular religion
> and led by the religious texts and gurus of that religion into
> un-questioning belief, and when somebody tries to question the beliefs,
> he's ostracized or worse, stoned.

GOD is THE right answere (what is good knowledge as i said above)
Question my beleifs, yeah i have done that, every thing have learnt from
therer is so accrurate and fine tuned, i just can't find a flaw to go and look
outside that world for real truth, what seee, hear, learn, is truth.
I don't care if my viewpoint is balanced or not, but from the angle i'm
watching it is perfectly balanced,

Yeah,i agreee with atleat that, i have seen people questioning the beliefs,
what people also question science and get ostracized.
Copernicus was tooo,
But, Questioning religion doesn't mean you should go and question it without
any strong belief of yours, no or false  ground to sustain your beliefs.

> If you can believe that science has proved that there are 'countless skies
> and Earths', why can't you believe in the Big Bang theory? Why don't you
> try looking for the answer in physics books instead of religious texts?

I don't believe in Big Bang theory, who said that, i didn't
But the point is what before big bang, big bang happened
the mass was so hot and compressed, so unstable, why didn't it happened
a little earlier, say 5 billion years, what was before that,
Man o Man o Man
when physics comes into play, i just love talking about it,
as i follow the physics quite closely, esp. astro Physics
As more and more powerful telescopes are being made
we can may beee seee beyon the big bang, right now we are
able to see the flash of Big Bang, As we shalll seeee

If it is physics i will go on and on and on,
tom is my paper and darn  what a the hell i am doin,

> Try and go beyond the religious texts, try writing one yourself. You could
> be our next messiah.

I dont' want to be one..., i already have many people i admire so no way

Last Lines....

Turn to the light, dont' be frightened by the shadows it casts.

> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject
> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>


Jaswinder Singh Kohli
jskohli at fig.org
The Uni(multi)verse is a figment of its own imagination.
When you are courting a nice girl, an hour seems like a second.
When you sit on a red-hot cinde, a second seems like an hour.
That's relativity.
  Albert Einstein (1879-1955), German-American

More information about the reader-list mailing list