[Reader-list] what is to be done?

[radhikarajen at vsnl.net]

Dear Fatima,
  

   I greatfully accept your observation of a traveller in limousine driving thru filth and  rot in the society, it is not meant to be any personal attack on any one, but in democratic society, where an individual who for his selfish reasons to gain power, was attacking every individual from south as "madrasis" without even knowing how many states are there in south India, when these individuals were hapless victims of this atrocity, Shivsena was boen as goon brigade, make over as "hindu " defenders was a misnomer, need of the time after the appeasement drama went to the extreme, by opening the gates of dilapidated building in Ayodhya, and the Shah bano case verdict upturned by ordinance.
 
  In a democratic society, faith is a very personal issue, which should not, I strongly opine should not come in the way of good governance of the communities as all are equal in law, must get good governance irrespective of faith, caste and region.Good governance is realised only when law treats every citizen equally, system punishes every one who takes law into his/her own hands to undermine the system. 

   Raj Thackeray who seems to be iconic of Marathi pride gives no pride to any humanity in his boorish behaviour. But the way the system is hesitating to take action against such goons irrespective of faith, be it a Owaisi, or a Raj is really sad ugly belly of democratic governance.
  If a tennis player has to be reluctant to play the game she loves, which gave greater glories to her and the nation because of fathwas, such fathwa creators should be behind the bars along with these goons. Then only we can have rights and duties respected and cherished in the nation.

  When governance is to be without fear or favour as per the oath taken by every individual in the system of governance, when they fail to deliver good governance to all, discriminate on the basis of caste and faith , region and language, it is neither healthy democracy or good governance. ?
  
 Regards. 

----- Original Message -----
From: "S.Fatima" <sadiafwahidi at yahoo.co.in>
Date: Thursday, February 7, 2008 1:24 pm
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] what is to be done?
To: Vivek Narayanan <vivek at sarai.net>, reader-list at sarai.net

> Dear Vivek
> Sorry to sound like this, but some of such mails from
> you reek of elitism. Redirecting some mails to the
> bullshit folder is one thing, but insulting them
> further goes to another level. Isn't that a personal
> vendetta that some on this list are requesting not to
> get into.
> Your calmness is akin to sitting in a limousine which
> is driving through the filthy roads and slums, which
> your darkened windows don't allow you to see.
> 
> sf
> 
> --- Vivek Narayanan <vivek at sarai.net> wrote:
> 
> > Strange... I have no idea about the recent
> > "incident" that you all are 
> > talking about...  I feel completely calm and happy
> > with what has been 
> > happening on the reader list.
> > 
> > Oh, wait a minute, that must be because I have 58
> > unread messages (since 
> > january 21) that went directly into my "bullshit"
> > folder!  Time to go 
> > and delete them, I suppose.
> > 
> > Vivek
> > 
> > Tapas Ray wrote:
> > > I agree with Aarti and Nishant. I have been using
> > filters quite 
> > > effectively against these individuals, whose
> > crudity entertained me 
> > > initially in a perverse sort of way, but became
> > tiresome after a while. 
> > > There is no need for anyone to engage with them,
> > since it is now clear 
> > > that their objective is not to take part in
> > rational debate but to 
> > > destroy this space by swamping it with hate
> > speech. (The reason, I 
> > > think, is that they know they lack the ability to
> > engage in reasoned 
> > > debate, and cannot hope to "win" it.)
> > >
> > > Mail filters are effective and can be put in place
> > by anyone in a few 
> > > minutes. Nishant's suggestion about tagging and
> > reporting abuse is also 
> > > good, but having such a system would mean someone,
> > acting as moderator, 
> > > having to spend part of his/her day because of the
> > actions of these 
> > > individuals - and I do not think they deserve so
> > much importance.
> > >
> > > Tapas
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Nishant Shah wrote:
> > >   
> > >> Hi Arti, All,
> > >> I have been a silent lurker in these days of
> > virulent invective and
> > >> hate-speech that have unfolded on the
> > reader-list. I haven't been silent
> > >> because I had nothing to say, or that I was not
> > provoked. I haven't been
> > >> silent because I did not feel equally angered,
> > sometimes to such an extent
> > >> that I had to walk away from the computer and
> > swear for the nth time that I
> > >> will just unsubscribe from the reader's list. I
> > have been silent because I
> > >> do not think I have the vocabulary to counter
> > arguments that are based on
> > >> nothing more than personal prejudices, or the
> > resources to deal with emails
> > >> that read a little more than poison pen.
> > >>
> > >> However, there is also another reason why I
> > prefer to be silent, as missiles
> > >> are hurled from one end to the other, one camp
> > offering peace flags and
> > >> reasons, the other camp packaging the same in
> > mails that resemble hand made
> > >> grenades used in violent spaces. Out of long
> > habit of dwelling on various
> > >> digital forms, I have realised that the behaviour
> > (read as writing) of some
> > >> of the members who have come to haunt this
> > particular digital platform, can
> > >> only be classified as 'Troll'.
> > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll).
> > >> And as the classic motto goes, 'Do Not Feed The
> > Troll.' There have been many
> > >> discussions on the reader-list about questions of
> > censorship, moderation,
> > >> facilitation and so on. Each time a particularly
> > venomous bunch of people
> > >> descend upon the reader-list, probably abusing
> > their office time and
> > >> professional resources to spew horror on to the
> > unwary people, we talk about
> > >> the possibilities of lags, of delays, of
> > moderation and of down-right
> > >> banning. However, all these, as we have have
> > often observed, will lead to
> > >> nowhere. Death, assassination and banning on the
> > interwebz is unfortunately,
> > >> only notional, symbolic. There are no finalities
> > to either of them and the
> > >> banning or the moderation of one ID would only
> > lead to the Trolls spinning
> > >> of many more IDs which would then come back for
> > their pound and a half of
> > >> flesh.
> > >>
> > >> Hence, IMHO, the best thing to do is to stop
> > FEEDING the TROLLS. I second
> > >> your request that there are so many other more
> > fruitful ways of engaging
> > >> with so many different topics, that it is almost
> > criminal (in the non-legal
> > >> sense of the word) to waste time and resources in
> > trying to convince the
> > >> digital equivalent of a black box with six
> > pre-fed scripts and no semblance
> > >> of intelligence - artificial or otherwise. We
> > might, next, as well start
> > >> arguing with characters in a novel, parts in a
> > movie, components of a
> > >> website. Instead, it is best to just move on.
> > >>
> > >> Having said that, I also realise that it is
> > sometimes difficult to move on.
> > >> More often than not, Trolls specialise in putting
> > their finger on the exact
> > >> right spot that triggers our buttons and induce
> > instantaneous combustion.
> > >> And hence, there will always be people replying
> > to these Flames that come
> > >> our way; unfortunately thinking all the time that
> > they are doing
> > >> fire-fighting, when actually they are just adding
> > fuel to the Troll Fire.
> > >> One technical measure that I can think of - and
> > this takes away the
> > >> unenviable job of a list moderator - is to
> > implement a tagging system in
> > >> place for all mails that come to the reader list.
> > This at least, allows
> > >> people to tag their mails - sometimes the titles
> > are misleading and provide
> > >> no warning for what is to come - so that when a
> > mail arrives, the readers
> > >> can see the tags and decide for themselves
> > whether they want to read the
> > >> mail or not.
> > >>
> > >> The second suggestion I have might be more open
> > for discussion - Most user
> > >> based free spaces of interaction in the
> > cyberspace have developed a policy
> > >> of reactive resistance to what they look upon as
> > an abuse of the space or
> > >> its resources. Under such a policy, you do not
> > ban users from saying what
> > >> they want to say, in whichever way they want to
> > say it, but instead allow
> > >> other users to 'Report Abuse' against a
> > particular user. The Terms of what
> > >> constitutes Abuse can often be generic but also
> > be very specific in nature
> > >> and can have a large consultation from the people
> > who have any stake in it.
> > >> Reporting Abuse eventually needs some sort of a
> > moderator who either
> > >> resolves the problem or simply marks the charged
> > person as guilty of abuse.
> > >> Many times, the reason for this marking is also
> > made public. This ensures
> > >> that some IDs which are seen as destructive or
> > Trollish, can appear
> > >> differently in the conversations, flagged as
> > potentially abusive in nature.
> > >> This also helps in new readers or readers who
> > have more invested in the
> > >> questions, to stay away from the responses that
> > these IDs might be
> > >> generating.
> > >>
> > >> I hope both these suggestions sound feasible. I
> > would be available for
> > >> further communication or planning out of the
> > architectural integration of
> > >> such sort to the Reader's List. I am glad for
> > your intervention and pleased
> > >> to see that instead of wasting time in responding
> > to the Trolls, we are now
> > >> looking upon them as symptomatic to a certain
> > kind of problem that emerges
> > >> in 'free speech and free space' and trying to
> > constructively deal with them.
> > >>
> > >> Un-lurking after a long time,
> > >> Nishant
> > >> On Jan 22, 2008 12:54 PM, Aarti Sethi
> > <aarti.sethi at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>   
> > >>     
> > >>> Dear all,
> > >>>
> > 
> === message truncated ===
> 
> 
> 
>      Bollywood, fun, friendship, sports and more. You name it, we 
> have it on http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups  
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