[Reader-list] HUMAN

Mon Jan 21 19:37:13 IST 2008

Dear Mr Chaithanya,

You rightly point out, HUMAN BEING is a HUMAN BEING. There is no Hindu Human
or Muslim Human or Christian Human. So, why should there be Indian Human or
Pakistani Human? Why not just remain Human? Is being human not enough? Why
do should Indian human have more validity than Hindu Human or Muslim human?
More fundamentallym, what is the need for it?
regards,
Sampath

On 1/21/08, reader-list-request at sarai.net <reader-list-request at sarai.net>
wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome (Krishna Chaithanya)
>   2. Re: Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome (chanchal malviya)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 13:23:25 +0530
> From: Krishna Chaithanya <tulunadu at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome
> To: chanchal malviya <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>
> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> Message-ID: <BAY120-W23495BB3BEEDACFAEC0F51C93D0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> HUMAN BEING is a HUMAN BEING. There is no Hindu Human or Muslim Human or
> Christian Human.
>
> Likewise Indian is an Indian. You give a call to all the Indians to
> organise a road show against terrorism. Every Indian who understands the
> brutality of terrorism will join. Every Indian who wants a safe living
> environment will join. Organise it collectively.  If your efforts are honest
> and sincere  it will be the  most touching roadshow.
>
> Bharat mata ki Jai is reduced to a slogan. Slogans ican not always
> inspire  people. Make people feel Bharatmata, then they will say 'Jaya ho'.
> With words, slogans and force you cant make people feel a nation.
>
>
> KC
> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:29:00 -0800
> From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome
> To: tulunadu at hotmail.com
> CC: reader-list at sarai.net
>
>
>
> I again say.. I do not hate them...
> My language might be tough...
>
> But I want them to become Indian Muslim  rather then Islamic Muslim...
> I want them to join our slogan of 'Bharat mata ki Jai'.. which Bukhari and
> the whole mulim community have rejected...
> I want them to join a road show against terrorism..
>
> I never wanted them to tell me Quran... I never wanted them to kill us
> when we are worshipping our dieties in temples in the name of Idolators as
> said in Quran..
> I want them to come out of those killing attitude and join the loving
> attitude...
>
> But I am finding that Hindus are the first enemy of Hindus...
> They have forgotten to live... They are already dead (this is what Lord
> Krishna exactly meant in 11th chapter when he showed Arjuna that they have
> already been killed)... and hence it is easy for Islam or Christianity to
> easily do thousands of Conversion...
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Krishna Chaithanya <tulunadu at hotmail.com>
> To: chanchal malviya <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>
> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:42:49 AM
> Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome
>
>
>
> Glad to know that  the supreme being has chosen  you to save the nation
> Every religious fundamentalist believes that he is the chosen one and his
> religion is the only path
> May the god bless you
>
>
>
>
> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:20:59 -0800
> From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome
> To: tulunadu at hotmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
> You are not to decide the right path...
> You are not among ones who can save the nation...
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Krishna Chaithanya <tulunadu at hotmail.com>
> To: chanchal malviya <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 10:43:30 PM
> Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome
>
>
>
> You are the best human I've ever come across.
> I can feel your energy,very vinrant, unfortunately it has not found the
> right path
>
> God bless you
>
>
> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:37:00 -0800
> From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome
> To: tulunadu at hotmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
> You first sacrifice your house to a Muslim..
> And then we will think about Kashmir...
> You are an Idiot... and an Anti-National... Absolutely no doubt..
>
> People like you will create many Kashmirs.. and get every Hindu killed...
> It is better you convert...
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Krishna Chaithanya <tulunadu at hotmail.com>
> To: chanchal malviya <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:37:51 PM
> Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome
>
>
> I'v no problem accepting Kashmir as a country, why not the Govt. accept
> it? why should we sacrifice our soldiers there? How much resources we have
> wasted on Kashmir all these years? how many people we'v got killed?
> Is there any meaning to it.
>
> Isn't it stupid- instead of holding what is with us tight, we focused a
> lot on Kashmir and allowed the fire to spread to other regions.
>
> KC
>
>
> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:47:47 -0800
> From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome
> To: tulunadu at hotmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yes.. I mean it...
> Because Kashmir is virtually a country now..
>
> It is army of India that is still holding it..
> And Muslims don't want that..
>
> This is the reason, you find so much of Muslims shouting on Army..
>
> This is the truth... Accept or Reject is your choice...
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Krishna Chaithanya <tulunadu at hotmail.com>
> To: chanchal malviya <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:10:18 PM
> Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome
>
>
>
> I can start quoting dates with killing
> counts in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kashmir...
> Correct yourself please...
> You'v said countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and KASHMIR....!
>
>
> > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:21:53 -0800
> > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com
> > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com; kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com;
> reader-list at sarai.net
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome
> >
> > Don't mislead...
> > The world knows that trucks of Women are exported by Pakistan to India
> (all HIV effected) for spreading AIDS in India... (I will get the Video
> uploaded on UTube on this, as this was shown by an external news channel)...
> and you say, women are raped in India..
> >
> > You do not require rape in your community... there is freedom of having
> more than one wife.. there is no freedom to women to report rapes... who
> will show what happens in your community...
> The Quran says them all... and I have all senteces of Quran right with
> me.... Believe me, all awaken Hindus are now reading Quran... they all know
> what is there in that book...
> > So, Muslims cannot fool the world any more that Quran teaches Peace...
> and Islam is a peaceful religion...
> >
> > Modi is a simple indication, what Hindus are now thinking... It is
> Muslims who have to think now... they have created this world a land of
> havoc... Everywhere they are simply engaged in Killing....
> > They even kill each other, as in Iraq and now in Pakistan... And they
> are seriously killing Hindus like anything.... If this is again refuted... I
> can start quoting dates with killing counts in countries like Pakistan,
> Bangladesh and Kashmir...
> >
> > I don't know, what is in their head.... How do they get so easily
> terrorised... What do they get in believing that killign an Idolator is a
> work of God... It is stupid... and yet they all
> are keeping this faith in their head....
> > they all are not engaged in killing, but they all are engaged in
> supporting this act...
> > Quran says, forgive the Idolators only if they accept Islam... and Quran
> says this right from second Surah to the last one...
> >
> > Why? Our religion don't teach about this variance at all... Geeta
> teaches how to unite, how to live with respective with each other, how to
> love, how to perform duty... Why can't you teach peace...
> >
> > Why can't you understand that Nature has created every creature (of all
> species) unique and different.. Nature has produced variance so that
> creatures can live with respect to each other... A specie is not naturally
> allowed to kill the same specie.. except for humans.. where humans are
> killing humans...
> >
> > Let India live with its heritage of Hindutva... Thousands of years of
> killing and enforcement have failed to eliminate Hindus... Another
> thousand will also fail... Because nature will keep the variance alive...
> But the attempt of Islam and christianity would only produce killing of
> innocent people...
> >
> > Hindus would kill muslims only during riots or war... But Muslim would
> kill always for religious reasons...
> > Please stop talking all these things..
> > Please talk peace...
> > Please talk how to proliferate the nation..
> > Please suggest how to remove the Quranic Islam and produce Indian
> Islam...
> > Please stop attacking Hindus, Modi and Army...
> > Please, please, please....
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Zainab Bawa <bawazainab79 at gmail.com>
> > To: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>; sarai list <
> reader-list at sarai.net>
> > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 3:42:08 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome
> >
> > Dear
> Kshmendra and all your supporters and back slappers,
> >
> > You can easily pinpoint Oishik for his outburst of anger and frustration
> and
> > then state that because he (mis)directed his anger at Vedavati and
> company,
> > he has no right to talk about the abuse of Manipuri women at the hands
> of
> > the Indian state appointed soldiers there. How about for a moment
> > questioning Lady Chanchal and her remarks and for once again coming back
> to
> > the issue that Oishik has tried to raise - the rape of women at the
> hands of
> > state appointed army and the manifestations of the state's violence at
> > women?
> >
> > Chanchal diverted the topic by once again going back to her pet peeve of
> > Islam and Muslim and her hang ups of some frozen history that she loves
> to
> > imagine. I pointed out to her that it has nothing to do with
> Hindu-Muslim
> > populations and Hindu-Muslim army soldiers but a
> larger question and concern
> > about women being direct targets of state violence (with that state
> violence
> > and injustice also being responsible for the rise of all kinds of other
> > movements to combat it). I then pointed to Chanchal how I have also been
> > eve-teased in Srinagar by soldiers. No, they did not come to ask me
> whether
> > I was Hindu or Muslim but made lewd remarks simply because I was woman
> and
> > bear breasts and bosom on my person. I also want to clarify that it not
> > about the soldiers themselves, but about the institutions and the
> systems
> > that get perpetrated within the structure of the conflict and occupation
> of
> > space. Chanchal immediately retorted saying that because I happen to be
> > "Muslim", I am likely to complain about being eve teased. *What kind of
> a
> > patriarchal and discriminatory remark is this?* This does not come to
> your
> > attention but Oishik's
> suggestion of anal stimulation immediately strikes
> > you and you make claims about the mothers and sisters of the world. You
> > don't recognize that we have turned this into a battle of whose position
> is
> > right and backslapping. In our egostical positions and pride and
> victimized
> > states, as Gowhar and others have rightly pointed out, we fail to see
> who
> > suffers - children who are beaten by the army, women who are serially
> raped
> > and butchered, men whose psyches have been muted by the violences,
> families
> > that continue to suffer the losses of their loved ones, etc. and this is
> not
> > restricted to Kashmir, but to violence all over the world. But perhaps,
> you
> > would brush this aside by exclaiming that these are standard complaints
> of
> > Muslims. And then you cleverly subvert every issue, incidence and event
> to
> > Kashmir and to Muslims. Clever you!
> >
> > On this note, having
> personally known Oishik, I vouch for him as a very
> > sincere, honest and well-meaning person. One remark of anger and
> frustration
> > does not define a person's overall political commitments and thoughts.
> And
> > this would apply to my not boxing either of you as good or bad people on
> the
> > basis of your positions.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Zainab
> >
> > *P.S. Any immediate retort/s to this email will be and ought to be
> > categorically ignored. *
> >
> >
> > On Jan 20, 2008 3:05 PM, <radhikarajen at vsnl.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Well said, with lal salaaam.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> > > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 2:48 pm
> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome
> > > To: sarai list <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > >
> >
> > > Oishik
> > > >
> > > > 1. Thank you for the suggestion directed to me. It does not
> > > > interest me. I too have some suggestions for you.
> > > >
> > > > 2. You seem to be obsessed with what you have experienced and
> > > > suggested. You see a lot of merit in it.
> > > >
> > > > 3. Charitable soul that you are, you must have promoted it to
> > > > your circle of family and friends.
> > > >
> > > > 4. OISHIT, since there might be others of your kind who might
> > > > not find your suggestions/language obscene and crude, you must
> > > > convince them about it. You must provide references for them on
> > > > the efficacy of your suggestion.
> > > >
> > > > 5. So OISHIT, I presume we will get testimonials from your
> > > > mother, sisters (if any), daughters (if any) and
> others to whom
> > > > you must have recommended the stimulation. They certainly would
> > > > have respected your suggestion. Maybe you even helped them in the
> > > > processes in the course of convincing them that your suggestion on
> > > > means to experience pleasure is not abuse. You must mention the
> > > > role played by you.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Kshmendra Kaul
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > OISHIK SIRCAR <oishiksircar at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Kshmendra:
> > > >
> > > > That was not meant to be an abuse at all... it was meant to
> > > > suggest a means to experience anal stimulation that can be
> > > > orgasmic... I have tried it... so suggested that Vedavati do the
> > > > same... you could also do the same... actually all the HINDUS who
> > > >
> are obsessing about nationalism on this listserv should do the
> > > > same... they'll realise that there are better and more enjoyable --
> > > > and of course more useful things in life to do than spew virulent
> > > > intolerance. Suggesting means to experience pleasure is not abuse,
> > > > I'm sure you'll agree.
> > > >
> > > > And I am overwhelmed with the kind of response my comments have
> > > > attracted -- that's the way to keep the Hindu bullshitters engaged
> > > > I can clearly see.
> > > >
> > > > If you find this mail to be crude and obscene as well -- I
> > > > would've made my point.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers...
> > > >
> > > > Oishik
> > > >
> > > > On Jan 19, 2008 3:16 AM, Kshmendra Kaul
> > > > <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > It is
> ironic that Oishik Sircar of all people should bring to
> > > > the notice of "SARAI" the protest by the women of Manipur against
> > > > abuse directed at them.
> > > >
> > > > Oishik Sircar, just a few weeks back (on Dec 25, 2007 in SARAI)
> > > > was the one directing abuse towards a woman in the most crude and
> > > > obscene manner.
> > > >
> > > > Wonder what the Faculty of Law at University of Toronto would
> > > > have to say to/about this hypocritical "Scholar in Women's Rights"
> > > > (sic).
> > > >
> > > > Kshmendra Kaul
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
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> > > > _________________________________________
> >
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> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
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> > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > OISHIK SIRCAR
> > > >
> > > > Scholar in Women's Rights
> > > > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto
> > > >
> > > > 60 Harbord Street
> > > > Room 016 B
> > > > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1
> > >
> >
> > > > oishiksircar at gmail.com
> > > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca
> > > >
> > > > 416.876.7926
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------
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> > > > Try it now.
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> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
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> >
> >
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 00:09:23 -0800 (PST)
> From: chanchal malviya <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome
> To: Krishna Chaithanya <tulunadu at hotmail.com>
> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> Message-ID: <776211.49174.qm at web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> This is your notion.. Not a reality..
> There are many such roadshows.. but what you say has never found to be
> applied...
>
> Even today, if you happen to be in Bangalore... Muslims celebrate with
> Crackers when Pakistan wins a Cricket match with India... and stupid Hindus
> cannot stop this..
>
> Talk reality..
> Your humanity is of no value for hungry animals...
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Krishna Chaithanya <tulunadu at hotmail.com>
> To: chanchal malviya <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>
> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:23:25 PM
> Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome
>
> HUMAN BEING is a HUMAN BEING. There is no Hindu Human or Muslim Human or
> Christian Human.
>
> Likewise Indian is an Indian. You give a call to all the Indians to
> organise a road show against terrorism. Every Indian who understands the
> brutality of terrorism will join. Every Indian who wants a safe living
> environment will join. Organise it collectively.  If your efforts are honest
> and sincere  it will be the  most touching roadshow.
>
> Bharat mata ki Jai is reduced to a slogan. Slogans ican not always
> inspire  people. Make people feel Bharatmata, then they will say 'Jaya ho'.
> With words, slogans and force you cant make people feel a nation.
>
>
> KC
>
>
>
> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:29:00 -0800
> From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome
> To: tulunadu at hotmail.com
> CC: reader-list at sarai.net
>
>
> I again say.. I do not hate them...
> My language might be tough...
>
> But I want them to become Indian Muslim  rather then Islamic Muslim...
> I want them to join our slogan of 'Bharat mata ki Jai'.. which Bukhari and
> the whole mulim community have rejected...
> I want them to join a road show against terrorism..
>
> I never wanted them to tell me Quran... I never wanted them to kill us
> when we are worshipping our dieties in temples in the name of Idolators as
> said in Quran..
> I want them to come out of those killing attitude and join the loving
> attitude...
>
> But I am finding that Hindus are the first enemy of Hindus...
> They have forgotten to live... They are already dead (this is what Lord
> Krishna exactly meant in 11th chapter when he showed Arjuna that they have
> already been killed)... and hence it is easy for Islam or Christianity to
> easily do thousands of Conversion...
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Krishna Chaithanya <tulunadu at hotmail.com>
> To: chanchal malviya <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>
> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:42:49 AM
> Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome
>
> Glad to know that  the supreme being has chosen  you to save the nation
> Every religious fundamentalist believes that he is the chosen one and his
> religion is the only path
> May the god bless you
>
>
> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 21:20:59 -0800
> From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome
> To: tulunadu at hotmail.com
>
>
> You are not to decide the right path...
> You are not among ones who can save the nation...
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Krishna Chaithanya <tulunadu at hotmail.com>
> To: chanchal malviya <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 10:43:30 PM
> Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome
>
> You are the best human I've ever come across.
> I can feel your energy,very vinrant, unfortunately it has not found the
> right path
>
> God bless you
>
>
> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 08:37:00 -0800
> From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome
> To: tulunadu at hotmail.com
>
>
> You first sacrifice your house to a Muslim..
> And then we will think about Kashmir...
> You are an Idiot... and an Anti-National... Absolutely no doubt..
>
> People like you will create many Kashmirs.. and get every Hindu killed...
> It is better you convert...
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Krishna Chaithanya <tulunadu at hotmail.com>
> To: chanchal malviya <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:37:51 PM
> Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome
> I'v no problem accepting Kashmir as a country, why not the Govt. accept
> it? why should we sacrifice our soldiers there? How much resources we have
> wasted on Kashmir all these years? how many people we'v got killed?
> Is there any meaning to it.
>
> Isn't it stupid- instead of holding what is with us tight, we focused a
> lot on Kashmir and allowed the fire to spread to other regions.
>
> KC
>
>
> Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:47:47 -0800
> From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome
> To: tulunadu at hotmail.com
>
>
> Yes.. I mean it...
> Because Kashmir is virtually a country now..
>
> It is army of India that is still holding it..
> And Muslims don't want that..
>
> This is the reason, you find so much of Muslims shouting on Army..
>
> This is the truth... Accept or Reject is your choice...
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Krishna Chaithanya <tulunadu at hotmail.com>
> To: chanchal malviya <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 6:10:18 PM
> Subject: RE: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome
>
>
> I can start quoting dates with killingcounts in countries like Pakistan,
> Bangladesh and Kashmir...  Correct yourself please... You'v said countries
> like Pakistan, Bangladesh and KASHMIR....!
>
>
> > Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:21:53 -0800
> > From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com
> > To: bawazainab79 at gmail.com; kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com;
> reader-list at sarai.net
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome
> >
> > Don't mislead...
> > The world knows that trucks of Women are exported by Pakistan to India
> (all HIV effected) for spreading AIDS in India... (I will get the Video
> uploaded on UTube on this, as this was shown by an external news channel)...
> and you say, women are raped in India..
> >
> > You do not require rape in your community... there is freedom of having
> more than one wife.. there is no freedom to women to report rapes... who
> will show what happens in your community... The Quran says them all... and I
> have all senteces of Quran right with me.... Believe me, all awaken Hindus
> are now reading Quran... they all know what is there in that book...
> > So, Muslims cannot fool the world any more that Quran teaches Peace...
> and Islam is a peaceful religion...
> >
> > Modi is a simple indication, what Hindus are now thinking... It is
> Muslims who have to think now... they have created this world a land of
> havoc... Everywhere they are simply engaged in Killing....
> > They even kill each other, as in Iraq and now in Pakistan... And they
> are seriously killing Hindus like anything.... If this is again refuted... I
> can start quoting dates with killing counts in countries like Pakistan,
> Bangladesh and Kashmir...
> >
> > I don't know, what is in their head.... How do they get so easily
> terrorised... What do they get in believing that killign an Idolator is a
> work of God... It is stupid... and yet they all are keeping this faith in
> their head....
> > they all are not engaged in killing, but they all are engaged in
> supporting this act...
> > Quran says, forgive the Idolators only if they accept Islam... and Quran
> says this right from second Surah to the last one...
> >
> > Why? Our religion don't teach about this variance at all... Geeta
> teaches how to unite, how to live with respective with each other, how to
> love, how to perform duty... Why can't you teach peace...
> >
> > Why can't you understand that Nature has created every creature (of all
> species) unique and different.. Nature has produced variance so that
> creatures can live with respect to each other... A specie is not naturally
> allowed to kill the same specie.. except for humans.. where humans are
> killing humans...
> >
> > Let India live with its heritage of Hindutva... Thousands of years of
> killing and enforcement have failed to eliminate Hindus... Another thousand
> will also fail... Because nature will keep the variance alive... But the
> attempt of Islam and christianity would only produce killing of innocent
> people...
> >
> > Hindus would kill muslims only during riots or war... But Muslim would
> kill always for religious reasons...
> > Please stop talking all these things..
> > Please talk peace...
> > Please talk how to proliferate the nation..
> > Please suggest how to remove the Quranic Islam and produce Indian
> Islam...
> > Please stop attacking Hindus, Modi and Army...
> > Please, please, please....
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Zainab Bawa <bawazainab79 at gmail.com>
> > To: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>; sarai list <
> reader-list at sarai.net>
> > Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 3:42:08 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome
> >
> > Dear Kshmendra and all your supporters and back slappers,
> >
> > You can easily pinpoint Oishik for his outburst of anger and frustration
> and
> > then state that because he (mis)directed his anger at Vedavati and
> company,
> > he has no right to talk about the abuse of Manipuri women at the hands
> of
> > the Indian state appointed soldiers there. How about for a moment
> > questioning Lady Chanchal and her remarks and for once again coming back
> to
> > the issue that Oishik has tried to raise - the rape of women at the
> hands of
> > state appointed army and the manifestations of the state's violence at
> > women?
> >
> > Chanchal diverted the topic by once again going back to her pet peeve of
> > Islam and Muslim and her hang ups of some frozen history that she loves
> to
> > imagine. I pointed out to her that it has nothing to do with
> Hindu-Muslim
> > populations and Hindu-Muslim army soldiers but a larger question and
> concern
> > about women being direct targets of state violence (with that state
> violence
> > and injustice also being responsible for the rise of all kinds of other
> > movements to combat it). I then pointed to Chanchal how I have also been
> > eve-teased in Srinagar by soldiers. No, they did not come to ask me
> whether
> > I was Hindu or Muslim but made lewd remarks simply because I was woman
> and
> > bear breasts and bosom on my person. I also want to clarify that it not
> > about the soldiers themselves, but about the institutions and the
> systems
> > that get perpetrated within the structure of the conflict and occupation
> of
> > space. Chanchal immediately retorted saying that because I happen to be
> > "Muslim", I am likely to complain about being eve teased. *What kind of
> a
> > patriarchal and discriminatory remark is this?* This does not come to
> your
> > attention but Oishik's suggestion of anal stimulation immediately
> strikes
> > you and you make claims about the mothers and sisters of the world. You
> > don't recognize that we have turned this into a battle of whose position
> is
> > right and backslapping. In our egostical positions and pride and
> victimized
> > states, as Gowhar and others have rightly pointed out, we fail to see
> who
> > suffers - children who are beaten by the army, women who are serially
> raped
> > and butchered, men whose psyches have been muted by the violences,
> families
> > that continue to suffer the losses of their loved ones, etc. and this is
> not
> > restricted to Kashmir, but to violence all over the world. But perhaps,
> you
> > would brush this aside by exclaiming that these are standard complaints
> of
> > Muslims. And then you cleverly subvert every issue, incidence and event
> to
> > Kashmir and to Muslims. Clever you!
> >
> > On this note, having personally known Oishik, I vouch for him as a very
> > sincere, honest and well-meaning person. One remark of anger and
> frustration
> > does not define a person's overall political commitments and thoughts.
> And
> > this would apply to my not boxing either of you as good or bad people on
> the
> > basis of your positions.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Zainab
> >
> > *P.S. Any immediate retort/s to this email will be and ought to be
> > categorically ignored. *
> >
> >
> > On Jan 20, 2008 3:05 PM, <radhikarajen at vsnl.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Well said, with lal salaaam.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Kshmendra Kaul <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>
> > > Date: Sunday, January 20, 2008 2:48 pm
> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Oishik Sircar & Abuse of Wome
> > > To: sarai list <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > >
> > > > Oishik
> > > >
> > > > 1. Thank you for the suggestion directed to me. It does not
> > > > interest me. I too have some suggestions for you.
> > > >
> > > > 2. You seem to be obsessed with what you have experienced and
> > > > suggested. You see a lot of merit in it.
> > > >
> > > > 3. Charitable soul that you are, you must have promoted it to
> > > > your circle of family and friends.
> > > >
> > > > 4. OISHIT, since there might be others of your kind who might
> > > > not find your suggestions/language obscene and crude, you must
> > > > convince them about it. You must provide references for them on
> > > > the efficacy of your suggestion.
> > > >
> > > > 5. So OISHIT, I presume we will get testimonials from your
> > > > mother, sisters (if any), daughters (if any) and others to whom
> > > > you must have recommended the stimulation. They certainly would
> > > > have respected your suggestion. Maybe you even helped them in the
> > > > processes in the course of convincing them that your suggestion on
> > > > means to experience pleasure is not abuse. You must mention the
> > > > role played by you.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Kshmendra Kaul
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > OISHIK SIRCAR <oishiksircar at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Kshmendra:
> > > >
> > > > That was not meant to be an abuse at all... it was meant to
> > > > suggest a means to experience anal stimulation that can be
> > > > orgasmic... I have tried it... so suggested that Vedavati do the
> > > > same... you could also do the same... actually all the HINDUS who
> > > > are obsessing about nationalism on this listserv should do the
> > > > same... they'll realise that there are better and more enjoyable --
> > > > and of course more useful things in life to do than spew virulent
> > > > intolerance. Suggesting means to experience pleasure is not abuse,
> > > > I'm sure you'll agree.
> > > >
> > > > And I am overwhelmed with the kind of response my comments have
> > > > attracted -- that's the way to keep the Hindu bullshitters engaged
> > > > I can clearly see.
> > > >
> > > > If you find this mail to be crude and obscene as well -- I
> > > > would've made my point.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers...
> > > >
> > > > Oishik
> > > >
> > > > On Jan 19, 2008 3:16 AM, Kshmendra Kaul
> > > > <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > It is ironic that Oishik Sircar of all people should bring to
> > > > the notice of "SARAI" the protest by the women of Manipur against
> > > > abuse directed at them.
> > > >
> > > > Oishik Sircar, just a few weeks back (on Dec 25, 2007 in SARAI)
> > > > was the one directing abuse towards a woman in the most crude and
> > > > obscene manner.
> > > >
> > > > Wonder what the Faculty of Law at University of Toronto would
> > > > have to say to/about this hypocritical "Scholar in Women's Rights"
> > > > (sic).
> > > >
> > > > Kshmendra Kaul
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------
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> > > > Try it now.
> > > > _________________________________________
> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> > > > Critiques & Collaborations
> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > > > subscribe in the subject header.
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> > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > OISHIK SIRCAR
> > > >
> > > > Scholar in Women's Rights
> > > > Faculty of Law, University of Toronto
> > > >
> > > > 60 Harbord Street
> > > > Room 016 B
> > > > Toronto, ON M5S 3L1
> > > >
> > > > oishiksircar at gmail.com
> > > > oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca
> > > >
> > > > 416.876.7926
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------
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> > > > subscribe in the subject header.
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> > > > list
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> > > Critiques & Collaborations
> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> > > subscribe in the subject header.
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> > >
> > _________________________________________
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> > Critiques & Collaborations
> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with
> subscribe in the subject header.
> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
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> >
> >
> >
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> End of reader-list Digest, Vol 54, Issue 60
> *******************************************
>