[Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?

chanchal malviya chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com
Sat Oct 18 09:10:32 IST 2008


I have only one reply...
I will wait for the day, when sword will reach your throat... even if you are an atheist... 
The sword would surely be not of Hindutva... 
Because Buddhism or Iscon has not spread on sword... It is the depth of knowledge that has made them sit in the heart of foreigners... Even Max Muller converted and realized that he was hurting the greatest faith of this world...  Read his last works, for example, 'India what it can teach us' ... 

You people do not know Hinduism... What you know is evident from the slang you apply and the hatred you reflect... 

Even though I attack Islam and Christianity, I do not hate their followers... I am attacking the wrong teachings.. But all of your languages reflect hatred towards people... 

We will wait for the time.. If not you, your children will surely have to answer to your anti-national concept of Secularism and anti-Hindutva... Because you are betraying the very character of this motherland - Hinduism....



----- Original Message ----
From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta <shuddha at sarai.net>
To: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com
Cc: Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com>; vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 11:39:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?

Chanchal, you moron, 

1. Hindus do have personal law in India, exactly as Muslims do, it is the Hindu Marriage and Inheritance Act. 
2. Hindus in India have been converting Christians at gun point in Orissa. And there is no legal ban on Hindus converting people of any religion.
3. Hindus proselytize and convert people in other countries quite actively. Just follow the activities of ISKCON and other Hindu outfits. They do exactly the same thing as Christians, Muslims, Buddhists and atheists do, try to convince other people to join them. There is nothing wrong with that.
4. Talking about any religion, by anybody, does not make them communal. I can, and do, appreciate the Upanishads and criticize the Bhagwad Gita, and find different and diverse interpretations in the Quran and the Bible or the Talmud, or the Dhammapada. That makes me neither communal, nor secular. It just makes me a person interested in knowing more about religion and religious practice (regardless of how I see my own faith or doubts).

WIth your numerous inteventions on this list you demonstrate that you are one of those Hindutva fanatics who actually know next to nothing, either of the religion you seek to uphold, or of the religions and ways of life you condemn. Since you consider yourself to be a proud Hindu, let me tell you, that your words, your pathetic prejudices actually bring shame and dishonour to your religion, exactly as the words, acts and prejudices of Muslim, Christian or Jewish fanatics bring shame and dishonour to theirs. 

Please leave us in peace and try not to subject us to the boundless depths of your ignorance.

Shuddha


On 16-Oct-08, at 10:50 PM, chanchal malviya wrote:

India is secular:
1. Muslims have personal law, but there is no Hindu personal law
2. Christians have rights to convert the Hindus, but Hindus do not have that.
3. Muslims get subsidy, Hindus pay subsidy
4. Hindus are in lakhs in other countries and they are not engaged either in conversion, but the same can be applied on them in their own motherland
5. Hindus can talk in support of Islam and Christianity to be secular, but talking about Hinduism is communal

Not to say the last words..
If all Religions are equal, why don't you convert to Islam or Christianity once for all. The problem will end. The problem lies because we chose to remain Hindu.


--- On Thu, 10/16/08, Vedavati Jogi <vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Vedavati Jogi <vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?
To: "Javed" <javedmasoo at gmail.com>
Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
Date: Thursday, October 16, 2008, 10:40 PM

i think pakistan will be a better place  for you mr. Asghar Ali Engineer.
 
vedavati

--- On Thu, 16/10/08, Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Javed <javedmasoo at gmail.com>
Subject: [Reader-list] HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?
To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
Date: Thursday, 16 October, 2008, 11:26 PM

HOW SECULAR IS INDIA TODAY?

Asghar Ali Engineer

(Secular Perspective October 16-31, 2008)

There is always a big gap between theory and practice, theology and
history. Indian constitution, no doubt, is one of the best in the
world. It is truly secular in spirit so much so it was secular even
when word secular was not added to it until 1975 i.e. during
emergency. If it were truly implemented India would be an ideal
country to live in especially for minorities, both religious as well
as linguistic.

However, as we all know there is big gap between theory and practice,
constitution and governance of the country. India was far more
peaceful after independence for number of reasons. Firstly,
nationalist leaders who had participated in freedom struggle and were
instrumental in framing the Constitution were still around and despite
various pressures, stuck to ideals and values to a great extent.

Secondly, due to idealism and nearness to spirit of freedom nation as
a category and national identity was of great importance and often
caste, linguistic and religious divisions mattered less. Thirdly, the
process of economic development had just begun and yet people's demand
for share in development on caste and communal lines was not very
articulate and loud.

Because of all this identity politics was still subdued and Marathi
versus non-Marathi, Tamil versus non-Tamil sentiments were not so
prominent. Hindu versus Muslims feelings were not so subdued due to
memory of partition but due to other factors communal violence was
still limited and had not assumed proportions of ethnic cleansing or
genocide like in Gujarat in 2002.

It all began with series of communal riots in sixties assuming great
proportions in Ahmedabad in 1969 and Bhivandi in 1970. In Ahmedabad
nearly 1000 people were killed in Ahmedabad in 1969 and around 400
people in Bhivandi. But then communal violence remained in check until
1977 when again some major riots took place in several places like
Jamshedpur, Aligarh and Varanasi etc.

Again whole of decade of eighties was full of communal violence
climaxing in Mumbai riots in 1992-93. The Ramjanam bhoomi movement
once again polarized as on the eve of partition. Again there was lull
in communal disturbances from 1992-93 to 2002 when Gujarat took place
in 2002. Gujarat riots once again made communal situation quite
fragile and weakened secular ethos in the country.

Now the identity politics soared quite high and national ethos
considerably weakened. Today everyone prioritize once caste, communal
and religious identity over national one. National rhetoric, as if,
has almost disappeared and even Hindutva forces talk more of Hindu
religion than of patriotism or nation. For them too Indian nationalism
has been replaced by Hindu nationalism.

For Shiv Sena of course Maharashtra was always more important than the
Rashtra (nation) and those Hindus too who spoke Hindi the
Rashtrabhasha (national language) came under attack. Several Hindus
from U.P. and Bihar were mauled by Marathi speaking zealots belonging
to Maharashtra Navniram Sena (MNS), a splinter group from Shiv Sena.

Now recently Christians who were never targeted before by the Hindutva
zealots have also come under attack. Christians, a mere 2.2 percent
minority and which has contributed so richly to the country in the
field of education and health services are being killed ruthlessly.
What is going on in Kandhmal district of Orissa and some adjoining
districts, is indeed hair raising.

More than 40 Christians have been killed, a nun mass raped, a woman
burnt beyond recognition, more than 400 houses burnt and looted and 35
thousand have fled from their villages to relief camps. And what for?
A myth has been spread by the powerful machinery of Sangh Parivar that
all Christians convert. Remember RSS propaganda "All Muslims are not
terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"?

Orissa is another Gujarat both in brutalities and terrorization of
minorities. When Christians and Muslims are being so brutally targeted
the RSS Chief Sudarshan says that both Muslims and Christians convert
and Muslims want every one to become Muslim and Christians want all to
follow Christ and so Hindus must give fitting reply. And our rulers
just look on.

When BJP was ruling over the country and whole country was
communalized we were feeling suffocated and felt liberated when UPA
took over and the BJP led Government defeated at the hustings. We
celebrated UPA's victory specially because it was supported by the
left which is the only hope for Indian secularism. However, left has
withdrawn its support on nuclear issue and once again we are feeling
suffocated in the communally surcharged state of affairs in India.

However, what is most worrisome is that it is happening under UPA
Government which is supposed to be a secular outfit. Perhaps today
there is more suffocation than even under the BJP-led NDA Government.
The UPA has forgotten all its promises made to the country and is
betraying minorities and jettisoning its secular commitment. Prime
Minister Manmohan Singh is more occupied with his pet nuclear pact
with America than the communal explosion back home.

The communal forces are growing stronger and stronger everyday and the
ruling coalition of secular forces is quite indifferent. The Home
Ministry is functioning quite in a lackadaisical manner. It has given
complete liberty to these forces and they are riding roughshod over
our secular values and constitutional forces. They never got such
license to function freely.

The NDA Government liberally recruited RSS inclined candidates in all
key positions and they captured important academic positions too.
Also, RSS trained teachers and journalists also were recruited on
large scale. It is because of this that we find communally minded
people in all walks of life. The media also has been communalised as
never before.

Today be it communal riots or terrorist attacks most of the newspapers
and T.V. channels publish police version unabashedly as if it is
ultimate truth. No questions are raised and it appears as if
investigative journalism has become story of the past. Media plays
most important role in strengthening democratic values and democracy
cannot survive without a critical and alert media. But it seems except
for few papers and magazines media has been completely communalised.

Even a well-known Daily from south which was known for its strong
commitment to secularism appears to have developed, of late, subtle
communal slant. It is indeed very critical period for India. India is
well known as largest secular democracy in the world. But first
Gujarat and now Orissa has dented its secular image thanks to Hindutva
forces. Manmohan Singh was faced with the most embarrassing situation
abroad and he had to admit that what is happening in Orissa is
'shameful'.

But having described developments in Orissa shameful what has he done
to redeem it? He is quite hesitant to ban Bajrang Dal and resisting
demand of some of his own Congress party colleagues to ban it saying
we are watching and waiting for reports from Chief Minister of Orissa.
It is indeed more shameful than communal carnage in Orissa. Any truly
secular government would have dismissed Navin Patnaik Government for
its complete inability to control communal violence.

So far I never believed that Indian communalism could take form of
fascism as many leftists had been saying all along. Today we see the
footprints of fascism in India. The situation is very similar to that
of Germany in the thirties. The unemployed hordes of lower middle
classes have joined Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad in large
numbers and hailing Hindutva leaders. Some of the text books in
Rajasthan and Gujarat, both BJP ruled states are praising fascism and
Hitler.

Also, the Central Government is appeasing these communal forces. It
appears though the Government at the Centre is of secular UPA but
agenda is of Sangh Parivar. The police appears to be taking orders
from Sangh Parivar rather than from ruling Congress or UPA. Riot after
riot be it in Orissa or Digras, Pusad or Dhule the police just looks
on when mobs loot and burn even during curfew hours.

It is indeed very very worrisome situation. The UPA Government is
assisting the Sangh Parivar in every way possible. The police is
riding absolutely roughshod over minorities and latest example is
Batla House 'encounter'. Though the print and electronic media
abdicated its responsibility the human rights groups raised questions
and pricked holes in the police claim of encounter of 'dreaded
terrorists'.

The situation is indeed very grave and unless secular forces unite and
play determined role things can get far more worse.
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Shuddhabrata Sengupta
The Sarai Programme at CSDS
Raqs Media Collective
shuddha at sarai.net
www.sarai.net
www.raqsmediacollective.net

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