[Reader-list] The Azadi We Need

[Prabhakar Singh]

We should not forget that we are Indians first ! Religion comes much later.Separatism and violence in the name of religion should be rejected by the society very strongly.But I see most of the so-called intellectuals of this group are taking pride in creating a feeling of separatism which is a criminal anti-national activity.Such people are resposible for creating hatred and violence.Should we not be sincerely concerned about the precios lives lost of innocent people in Delhi blast yesterday? Is it enough to shed our crocodile tear every time such blast occurs and follow the same path of creating a divide to ensure the next blast and continued loss of innocent people? We all are resposible for all that is happening.
Prabhakar



----- Original Message ----
From: "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" <radhikarajen at vsnl.net>
To: Partha Dasgupta <partha.dasgupta at eliteinfomachine.com>
Cc: reader-list at sarai.net
Sent: Sunday, 14 September, 2008 3:57:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Azadi We Need

Really good thoughts, but the likes of Inder salim with hidden agenda of their faith do not understand, nor do they have the will to appreciate the way of life, insaniyath, of which they talk and earn wealth out such glib talks.!

----- Original Message -----
From: Partha Dasgupta <partha.dasgupta at eliteinfomachine.com>
Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008 3:42 pm
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Azadi We Need
To: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
Cc: reader-list at sarai.net

> Hi,
> 
> There are a lot of 'strange pasts' from Bangladesh to Tibet and 
> others.
> We could go back to 'British Rule' or other points in history, 
> which won't
> make a difference. Today is here and now with a burning Kashmir 
> and a
> burning Jammu at odds with each other.
> 
> Let us not talk of 'nationalism' as most of us pay taxes (and 
> can't recourse
> to creative accountants as we can't afford it) which a large part 
> of goes
> into sustenance of J&K where the Hindu's have had to flee from.
> 
> What is gone can't be brought back. Let's look at now and what can 
> be done.
> 
> Even the inhospitable Tibet has been annexed by China and a 'free' 
> Kashmirwill never be free - especially so when Pakistan is torn 
> apart by the
> militancy as well as lack of free governance. As a case in point, 
> 'AzadKashmir' is far more repressed that the 'Indian Occupied 
> Kashmir'. Look at
> Pakistan's acceptance of US armed attacks.
> 
> So let's take a clear eyed look at what is and what can be done.
> 
> I have many dear friends (and they are friends - not because they 
> are Muslim
> or Christian or... but because they are friends), many who called 
> yesterdayto ask if I was safe after the blast - irrespective of 
> the fact that some
> were Muslims.
> 
> This sinking into a haze of 'we poor Muslims' is defeat and if 
> that's what
> you want to do, then no one can stop you. I debate with Pawan & 
> others on
> the same factors. Look ahead and look at what can be done for 
> peace & life
> instead of hate and defeat.
> 
> Look at the militancy in Kashmir as well as the blasts in Delhi. I 
> certainlywant the police checks in Delhi so that my children can 
> go safely. Sure, I
> had a number of stops and was slowed down, but would rather have 
> that than
> my family's life being endangered.
> 
> What's your case?
> 
> You ask for 'Liberty'. So do I - from this fear that I may one day 
> come back
> home to children torn up in a blast of 'freedom fighters' as 
> ridiculous as
> the 'pro-lifers' who kill to prove their point.
> 
> All I'm saying is that fanaticism in any form is dangerous and if 
> we do not
> raise our voice against it today, then our silence will be taken as
> agreement just as it was accepted that 'Hindus' agreed with the 
> breaking of
> Babri Masjid, and now that 'Muslims' support the terrorist blasts.
> 
> It's time we move beyond this mass grouping and make up our own 
> minds as to
> what we want to say instead of being a part of the herd.
> 
> Rgds, Partha
> .....................
> 
> On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 1:20 PM, inder salim 
> <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > History is a strange past. If  Nepal was under British rule,  Sardar
> > Patel might have loved to begin the formation of Indian Union from
> > there itself; and by now it might have been part of Uttaranchal, or
> > just another state by the name Nepal District;  with its erestwhile
> > princes and kings drinking French wine at IIC. It is just a 
> matter of
> > chance that that did not happen. Instead of that we have a wonderful
> > beginning in Nepal under a new leadership. India has no 
> hesitation to
> > recognise it, although the fact remains that Maoist ways of 
> achieving> it have been criticized by MEA in no other terms but 
> Terrorism.>
> > J&K too was not part of British Rule in 1947. It is just a 
> matter of
> > chance that Kashmir could not achieve the status of a Free 
> Nation that
> > time. ( I know the word 'Nation' sounds shitty ).  It had all the
> > ingredients which Nepal had. The only difference, here is that Nepal
> > had Hindus and Kashmir had Muslims.  No one has an answer, what 
> ruined> the dream of Sheikh Modh. Abudlah, as Mr. Kak said that 
> even now,
> > "none of us can as yet lay claim to saying that we know what the
> > movement aims at no one can say" . But still we don't know why Nepal
> > is a free country and why  Kashmir is not.  We know dreams, 
> after a
> > while get blurred and the priorities shift. New things emerge, while
> > history keeps on mocking at us, which intrigues me, sometimes very
> > funnily.
> >
> > So, it is indeed difficult to write on Kashmir. It is, perhaps easy
> > for those who a single line of action to offer, mainly those who are
> > overtly nationalistic. After reading, Roy, Muhajir and then 
> Sanjay, I
> > feel that Kashmir is really a strange land. Something is surreal 
> about> the land. Its people, its past and history makes it unique. 
> If one
> > looks at the recent poetry of Kashmir in kashmiri, one can feel that
> > its unique past is still reverberating in its veins, which is quite
> > different from what is being written in urdu or in English.  It is
> > simply different. I imagine the constitution of a Free New 
> Kashmir in
> > Kashmiri.  The language will itself oust the hardliners. The 
> terrible> face of Nation State too might soften. But as we know, 
> fortunately or
> > unfortunately, we are wedded to  History which is known to all 
> of us.
> > But that is not all, most of us know that,  but cant do much about
> > that. History is the puzzle which we are actually trying to solve.
> >
> > The muslim character is Kashmir is simple a matter of fact and 
> nothing> beyond.  And as Ronald Barthes  writes, there is nothing 
> which is
> > called a matter of fact. SAS Geelani will disagree,  but deep down,
> > people in Kashmir want to celebrate life, not fundamentalism. People
> > in Nepal too finally don't need a King or a declaration that 
> Nepal is
> > a Hindu State. Kashmir too can refurbish its true credentials. 
> But as
> > Shuddha, too said that fundamentalism and its terror tactics only
> > strengthen the State. "The only winner is state". So paradoxically,
> > our too much of attention on Muslim factor in Kashmir is making 
> things> worst for the core meaning of  Kashmiriyat ( the word, 
> prostituted by
> > the  State Machinery over the years, but I still use it, although
> > there can be a Kashmiri equivalent to it, but let us preserve 
> that for
> > the proposed constitution, here, I hope, 'kashmirityat' would 
> suffice> ). But, the British ways of implementing partition made 
> it impossible
> > for us to see something other than a Hindu or a Muslim reality. We
> > have a history, which is quite painful. And for the abscess of those
> > inflicted wounds , we are still looking for British ( western )
> > anti-biotics, which heals but without a guarantee to heal it at the
> > core. Kashmiris still have a chance to throw up an agenda which 
> can be
> > based on a simple understanding of its own poets and saints. They
> > might succeeded where a great Hero like Sheikh Mohd Abudullh failed.
> >
> > If there is a movement, in Kashmir beyond the basic demand for 
> removal> of Security forces from Kashmir and restoration of 
> dignity in the
> > daily life, then it has to be based on some thought of civil society
> > where people can talk, express freely and sit seriously to talk 
> about> the future of humanity on this earth. A simple aversion of 
> Indian Tri
> > colour will not lead to some long lasting results, as Ms. Roy also
> > highlighted 'Doubt ' in her text on Azadi in Kashmir
> >
> > "Liberty has no refuge in the jurisprudence of doubt" I don't 
> remember> who said it, but it does speak about the necessity of 
> doubt in the
> > present, even if it means a delay for those who march on path of '
> > safray azadi'.  To unravel the unpredictable of the present we 
> have no
> > other chance but to ' wait and watch' as Sanjay hinted. All
> > calculations might collapse.  I  just am trying to emancipate 
> myself> more on the subject : Kahseer
> >
> > With love
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 11:13 PM, Sanjay Kak 
> <kaksanjay at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Thanks, Jeebesh, for posting Umair Ahmed Muhajir's piece "The 
> Azadi We
> > Need"
> > > 
> http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080904&fname=umair&sid=1> >
> > > The Sarai list has robustly reflected the recent revival of 
> interest in
> > the
> > > idea of Kashmir's Azadi, and I think many of us would be in 
> synch with
> > the
> > > despair reflected in Muhajir's understanding of the monstrous 
> contours of
> > > the modern nation state, especially as it has unfolded in our 
> part of the
> > > world–India, Pakistan, Bangladesh...
> > >
> > > What I do not share is the certainity with which he–like many 
> writers in
> > > recent weeks both here and in other public forums in India–have
> > visualised a
> > > possible Azad Kashmir. Perhaps because few in Kashmir have 
> been able to
> > > spell out their vision, our assumptions have flooded in and 
> filled the
> > > space. One of these is that Azadi necessarily means an Islamic 
> Nation.> > Certainly there are pointers from some of the political 
> leaders of the
> > > movement that this may be the idea. Syed Ali Shah Geelani has 
> spoken of
> > the
> > > centrality of Islam in his vision, and no doubt there are 
> other elements
> > in
> > > the Hurriyat that would concur. (Although even here it is an open
> > question
> > > whattheir Islamic role model is: Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, 
> Malaysia, Syria,
> > > Qatar? Or another: Kashmir,) But surely it cannot be the case 
> that what
> > > Geelani says, or what elements of the Hurriyat hint at can be 
> taken as
> > > conclusive in our understanding of the aspirations for Azadi? 
> (Especially> > when most people who draw these conclusions are 
> also the first to
> > question
> > > the representative character of Geelani or the Hurriyat!)
> > >
> > > Our discussions of where Kashmir is headed is already moving 
> so giddily
> > > ahead of the state of play, that sometimes I get the sensation 
> that these
> > > are not really conversations about Kashmir, and the abominable 
> situation> > there, but really about our anxieties about 
> ourselves. (Here I use "our"
> > for
> > > those of whose of us who do not see ourselves as Kashmiris–so 
> Indians,> > Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, whoever.)
> > >
> > > Let us for a moment ignore the hardliners in the public 
> discourse, the G
> > > Parthasarathy, K Subrahmanyam, Harish Khare (and for comic relief,
> > Jaitirath
> > > Rao) line on Kashmir. (In a nutshell: fry them).
> > > Let's turn to the liberal discourse, where however 
> sophisticated the
> > > language, and however much sympathy for the "ordinary 
> Kashmiri" is
> > evoked,
> > > the main preoccupation seems to be around what a possible Azad
> > Kashmir–one
> > > which wears it Muslim majority and its Islamic character on its
> > sleeve–will
> > > do to the idea of Indian secularism, to Indian democracy, and 
> to India's
> > > Muslims. In India, for example, the failure to fulfill the 
> aspirations of
> > a
> > > Secular, Socialist, Democratic Republic that We The People 
> were promised,
> > > seem to hinge entirely on whether or not Kashmir continues to 
> be part of
> > > India... How fragile is this notion of the Secular Socialist 
> Democracy> that
> > > it hinges entirely on a part of the map that has never 
> enthusiastically> > embraced the geographical entity that bounds 
> that ideal!
> > >
> > > So too in Muhajir's otherwise excellent discussion of the 
> Nation State,
> > > Kashmir is only the peg upon which the larger anxiety hangs. I 
> tended to
> > > read his piece as a lament about the failure of our nations to 
> meet the
> > > aspirations of our decolonising imaginations. About what he 
> calls the
> > Azadi
> > > We Need.
> > >
> > > To say, as Muhajir does, that "the idea of an independent 
> Kashmir for
> > > Kashmiris must be resisted precisely because, as the 
> experience of the
> > > once-colonised has amply illustrated, nation-states are 
> appallingly> inhuman"
> > > is a suggestion of some casual brutality. And when he says 
> that "nothing
> > in
> > > the Kashmiri independence movement suggests that it will throw up
> > anything
> > > different; indeed given that the movement aims at a traditional
> > nation-state
> > > just like all the others, I submit that it cannot yield a 
> different> result",
> > > I can only wonder at his certainity of whatthe movement aims 
> at. He is
> > > asking us not just to doubt, or raise a red-flag of warning, 
> but to
> > "resist"
> > > because he believes that an Independent Kashmir may turn into 
> the monster
> > > with the big floppy ears and the sharp tusks? Remember the Six 
> Blind Men
> > of
> > > Hindustan, and the Elephant?
> > >
> > > Because in the absence of democracy, in the absence of free 
> and fearless
> > > politics, and in the presence of a quite monstrous apparatus of
> > occupation,
> > > none of us can as yet lay claim to saying that we know what 
> the movement
> > > aims at.
> > >
> > > The discomfort with the Nation State is a valid one. If indeed 
> there are
> > > those within the movement who casually think of such an 
> entity, then they
> > > would do well to make themselves familiar with the arguments 
> Mohajir> > assembles against it. But for the vast majority of 
> people in the valley,
> > the
> > > idea of Azadi does not as yet have such elaborate contours. It 
> still> means
> > > removing the Army, bringing back some elementary dignity into 
> everyday> life.
> > > We can lay the charge at the door of the Separatist leadership 
> that they
> > > have failed to start that conversation about what Kashmir 
> could be like.
> > But
> > > before we "resist" the idea of Azadi we–and here I speak of 
> Indians–must> > also take on board our complicity in a system that 
> has not allowed any
> > form
> > > of genuine democratic process to emerge in Kashmir, not just 
> since 1989
> > when
> > > the armed conflict broke out, but for at least three decades 
> before that.
> > >
> > > And what if, in the absence of another workable alternative 
> that they can
> > > come up with, or indeed we can offer them, they still choose 
> the tattered
> > > and torn robes of the Nation State? Will we say to them that their
> > struggle
> > > is meaningless, their suffering inconsequential, the 
> repression they have
> > > dealt with somehow appropriate? Because they don't understand 
> the perils
> > of
> > > the Nation State they must cease to resist?
> > >
> > > In recent weeks, one can see the furry edges of the Establishment
> > fluffing
> > > up in defence of old atrophied positions. Forget the 
> Intelligence Bureau
> > > plants and the Home Ministry hand-outs. Academics Sumit 
> Ganguly and Kanti
> > > Bajpai, separately and together, placed a series of articles 
> all over the
> > > national and international media that set up a sort of Qualifying
> > Standard
> > > to Permit Secession. Minimally you are required to say Yes to the
> > following:
> > > Genocide? Ethnic flooding? Major human rights violations? 
> Since India has
> > > fallen short on all counts, they aver, with only 70,000 dead, 
> and No
> > Major
> > > human rights violations, the Standard is not met . Sorry then. 
> No case
> > for
> > > Azadi.
> > > Who set up this Gold Standard, and who calibrates it?
> > >
> > > While it is not my intention to place Muhajir's arguments on 
> the same
> > shelf
> > > as the Hawks and the Hawks-in-Dove-feathers, I bring them together
> > because
> > > collectively they serve the same end-result: "This may not end 
> up the way
> > WE
> > > want it, so lets just wait and watch".
> > >
> > > That was the position that British Liberals could well have 
> taken in the
> > > years before Independence: hand over India to the Hindu 
> Mahasabha? The
> > > Muslim League? To Gandhi?.
> > > Better a part of Empire than to allow India to destroy itself 
> under the
> > > weight of its own contradictions.
> > >
> > > That has been the position of liberal Indians for at least 
> twenty–if not
> > > sixty–years. Frozen in a rigor mortis of wilful ignorance, 
> political> > correctness, and theoretical purity.
> > >
> > > This may not be The Azadi They Need.
> > >
> > > Sanjay Kak
> > > _________________________________________
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > http://indersalim.livejournal.com
> > _________________________________________
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Partha Dasgupta
> +919811047132
> _________________________________________
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