[Reader-list] What Was Written in "Satyadarshini" Pamphlet

Aditya Raj Kaul kauladityaraj at gmail.com
Sat Sep 27 16:07:19 IST 2008 

Inder Salim ji,

You are engulfed in this unfortunate psychological incorrectness of history.
As I said before, your arguments are based on rumours; and I have humbly put
forth some historical perspectives in front of you of what is the truth.

No, I don't agree that their is any kind of division or discrimination among
the Pandit Community. I said you marry your daughter/son; just for your
personal satisfaction; not mine.
If you experience, one such wedding in your own family; it might help you
identify more closer to reality.

I don't understand why you want to remain in dark and love being blind about
history and the truth of the past.

Its high time your read those two books advised by me. Otherwise, you will
continue to live in a fools paradise.

I'm astonished with the fact, that why do you want to encourage hatred, and
discrimination among the peace-loving Pandits.

By your, angry childish mails above, I'm sure you have never even heard of
Rajatarangini and Nilmat-purana.

So, its best you take time out from Reader's list and study history. Even I
enjoy reading history, and learning from the past.

You have been ignorant all the time, at least here on the Sarai Network.
Hope better sense prevails upon you.

P.S. - It seems you don't have an argument as before, so it would be in the
best interest of the Sarai reader's if you kindly refrain from continuing
this thread. All is upto you. :-)


Love
Aditya Raj Kaul

On 9/27/08, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> dear kaul sahib
>
> dont feel cornered by your own quotes and understanding of history,
> feel free, even if you are wrong, there is always time for
> corrections.
>
> you agree that there are no marraiges taking place between Buhurs and
> Kauls . ( i should marry one, just to satisfy you, you make me laugh )
>
> you agree that most Buhurs use their surname as Tickoo.
>
> you agree that you quote, history, which is not yours which is more
> authentic.
>
> And  those sections of society who suffer for ages because of their
> surnames, caste or colour or religion should abandon that belonging.
> Ambedkar was right that all the schedule caste people should change
> their religion, say Budhism.
>
> Why not, i beleive, Buhurs ( a  minority )  who dont enjoy a the right
> kind of stauts amongst proud  Kahsmiri pandits should change their
> religion, or do something to escape this label LAJBATTA.
>
>   Why should some people continue to suffer for this reason or that. we
> should be rational in our approach to this social problem.
>
> what is the fear ?
>
> love
> is
>
> Dear Radhika ji
>
> thanks for your kind response. i am not dividing kashmiri pandits. But
> it is a fact that Tickoo never dared to sit in front Kauls or Dhars at
> Hari Parbat shrine. This is a fact. what is so wrong to talk about it.
>
> rgards
> is
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 3:19 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul
>
> <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Inder Salim ji,
> >
> >      Considering your age and some knowledge of Kashmir, I didn't expect
> at
> > least such a pathetic and immature response from your end.
> >
> > I just quoted some references from historical texts; which you may have
> > ignored for reasons best known to you. At no point did I push you to
> agree
> > with me or my point; it was plain history which I quoted. In response to
> it;
> > your e-mail doesn't substantiate on anything.
> >
> > I don't and shouldn't bother about your personal remarks. You have from
> very
> > long spreading disinformation among people who don't know much about
> > Kashmir. Unfortunate.
> >
> > I never said Buhur's are not Kashmiri Pandits. Please stop being sick.
> >
> > Read History, that will help you refresh a bit. Grow up and leave the
> > appeasement mindset.
> >
> > You have been claiming from last so many e-mails that Buhur's and KP's
> don't
> > have weddings among each other. Why don't you start this remarkable step
> for
> > your personal satisfaction from your own home ? Sounds Fantastic. Isn't
> it ?
> >
> > P.S. - Your response is in fit of anger and has less or almost no
> hostorical
> > basis. Kindly educate yourself. Read my previous e-mail again and the two
> > books that I've mentioned. It will only help you.
> >
> > Love
> > Aditya Raj Kaul
> >
> > On 9/27/08, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Dear Kaul sahib,
> >>
> >>
> >> Now, about Buhur as you mentioned rightly. Their origin is not certain.
> >> Though Buhur's consider themselves to be the true specimen of Kashmiri
> >> Pandits belonging to Malmasi division. Pandit Anand Koul in "The
> Kashmiri
> >> Pandit" calls them by the name of Lejbhatta.
> >>
> >>
> >> the above para is from your own response.   This is what Hitler too
> >> might have said about  non-Aryan race in Germany.
> >>
> >> " their origin is not certain, they belong to this division or that "
> >> Watch your observation.  What do you mean by  true specimen, it is
> >> very sad that you dont consider Buhur as a true kashmiri pandits.  "
> >> MalMasi" perhaps it means outsiders in comparison to ' Banmasi' who
> >> are indigenous.  And, here interstingly, outsiders mean those hindus
> >> who have come to kashmir from India. That means you consider Hindus
> >> from India inferior to Kashmiri Pandits. Is it so ?
> >>
> >> again Pandit Anand Kaul ( KAUL ) writes, as you quote him that these
> >> are LejBhattas.  ( those who cook in earthenwares, or those who
> >> returned back to Pandit fold after a brief conversion to  Islam )
> >> Sad. That  you still beleive LejBhatta, which is almost a slang .
> >>
> >> You must know why Buhurs used their surnames as TICKOO.  You must know
> >> that the surnames in kashmir play a vital role, as in any other
> >> society. Kashmiri pandits  in general dont approve a marraige between
> >> Buhurs and Kauls,etc.
> >>
> >> Surprising,  those pandits who perform religous rituals  ( Bhahmins )
> >> are also considered LOW in comparison to Kauls etc.  there again no
> >> marriages  happen between Kauls and them.
> >>
> >>
> >> One should not be ashamed of what has happened in the past, but one
> >> should restore human dignity of the other.... it begins with self
> >> introspection, which is thought...
> >>
> >> so think, why you dont want to to speak about these fact as they are.
> >> you  will feel free, just have  some courage.
> >>
> >> again, those Kashmiri muslims who clean toilets and repair shoes have
> >> their own shrines and mosques in their vicinity where they live.
> >> so for examples, again there are no inter-marriages happening  between
> >> them and the rest....
> >>
> >>   Dont  we had a   Buhur mohalla  in Bijbehara, in srinagar as well...
> >>   yes, they dont have sepearate shrines and  deities, and they consider
> >> themselves as Kashmiri Pandits, but you dont, Pity
> >>
> >> love
> >> is
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 10:10 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul
> >>
> >> <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Shri Inder Salim,
> >> >
> >> > The courage with which you spread mis-information astonishes me; but
> we
> >> have
> >> > always had such people who want to malign their own community,
> sometimes
> >> for
> >> > pleasure and at times without even a reason to such unfortunate rare
> >> > behaviour. Maybe, Psychologists would help you find a one time
> solution
> >> to
> >> > it.
> >> >
> >> > I'm no master in history; not even on Kashmir; but I sure have some
> basic
> >> > knowledge from my family, elders and even a few books that I've read;
> >> that I
> >> > can share with you; to gets your facts right. I'm happy that there
> still
> >> > exist historical texts which can guide you to truth. Kindly forget
> your
> >> > appeasement state of mind; when you study history especially on
> Kashmir.
> >> >
> >> > Since, you started this debate by raising the issue of surnames and
> >> > allegedly claimed that there have been discriminatory mindset attached
> to
> >> > it, let me begin helping you understand your own surname.
> >> >
> >> > 'TIKOO' - It is said to have originated from the 'Trika'. The members
> of
> >> > this family were special devotees of the godess 'Tripura'. Fauq has
> given
> >> > one more explanation stating that an ancestor of this family adopted a
> >> > non-Brahman boy who was deemed to have become a Brahman by a Tika (a
> >> sacred
> >> > mark on the forehead of a Brahman). He and his descendants were later
> >> > nicknamed as Tiku.
> >> > The use of surnames in ancient Kashmir is negligible, present Kashmiri
> >> > surnames, have more or less evolved during the Muslim and Sikh rule.
> It
> >> is
> >> > stated that almost all the Kashmiri Pandits were Kaul's and they were
> >> later
> >> > on subdivided according to different nicknames and with the passage of
> >> time,
> >> > these nicknames became permanent surnames. There seems to be some
> truth
> >> in
> >> > this statement primarily because all the Kashmiri Pandits are
> Shaivites
> >> and
> >> > Mahakoul is one of the names of Lord Shiva, and secondly because the
> >> number
> >> > of nicknames even now attached with the surname Kaul is largest of
> all.
> >> >
> >> > Prof. R.K. Kaul in his book "Sociology of Names and Nicknames of
> India"
> >> with
> >> > special reference to Kashmir, that, "Moreover, in recent years the use
> of
> >> > nicknames is being progressively discarded and the surname Koul is
> being
> >> > adopted more than any other surname by almost all such people.
> >> >
> >> > Now, about Buhur as you mentioned rightly. Their origin is not
> certain.
> >> > Though Buhur's consider themselves to be the true specimen of Kashmiri
> >> > Pandits belonging to Malmasi division. Pandit Anand Koul in "The
> Kashmiri
> >> > Pandit" calls them by the name of Lejbhatta.
> >> >
> >> > And, Let me clarify that I've all respect for you as a Kashmiri and as
> >> well
> >> > as an elder; but I said "Laanath" and still stand with it firmly
> because
> >> you
> >> > always try to ignore history, truth and have been always ignorant of
> your
> >> > surname. Also, your e-mail reflects your unfortunate thinking, which
> is
> >> > actually disastrous.
> >> >
> >> > Again, your claim about Hari Parbat; is truely based on falsehood. You
> >> > yourself are from Trika; the originator; how can you even speak of
> such
> >> > discrimination. Stop making fun of yourself atleast.
> >> >
> >> > I'm and will always remain a proud Kashmiri Pandit. And, for you I
> only
> >> have
> >> > sympathies. I never asked you about your observations on me. You may
> >> kindly
> >> > keep those words with you. I would be happy if you utilise that time
> in
> >> > reading history and framing the right opinion and not spread unwanted
> >> > hatred. There was and will remain no discrimination among Kashmiri
> >> Pandits
> >> >
> >> > Kashmiri Pandits have always been peace loving and have educated the
> >> world;
> >> > don't degrade our community by such petty things.
> >> >
> >> > Hope you ponder over a bit about the above and read history; instead
> of
> >> > going along with the wind of rumours.
> >> >
> >> > Love
> >> > Aditya Raj Kaul
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 9/24/08, inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Dear  Mr. Kaul sahib
> >> >> it takes some courage to speak the truth.
> >> >>
> >> >> 1. what about Boohir, are they kashmiri pandits or not ? are they
> equal
> >> ?
> >> >>
> >> >> 2  are marriages taking place between upper ( caste ) Kashmri Pandits
> >> >> and those kashmiri pandits who are either KANDOOR (Bakers) or   SICHT
> >> >> (tailors)?
> >> >>
> >> >>   3 it is a true that Tickoos used to sit behind Dhars and Kauls at
> >> >> Hari parbhat. may be you dont know, so confirm .
> >> >>
> >> >> Besides that have you ever witnessed a kashmiri pandit cleaning a
> >> >> street, cleaning toilets, repairing shoes.  Why are they all from
> >> >> muslims cpmmunity?
> >> >>
> >> >> How do you think that these jobs should be reserved only for Muslims
> >> >> in kashmir. You are a proud  kashmiri  pandit, right, but what about
> >> >> these facts, have guts to answer.
> >> >>
> >> >> yes,  when you say ' lanath ' it actually means that you are an
> >> >> arrogant, a fit case to follow a parveen Tagodia type of politician,
> >> >> You have future ahead, which is unfortunate for cherished  secular
> >> >> values of india. This is my observation about you after watching your
> >> >> reflections on the List.
> >> >>
> >> >> but i consider you still my younger brother, so i wont say 'lanth' to
> >> >> you, to none.
> >> >>
> >> >> love
> >> >> is
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 12:03 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul
> >> >> <kauladityaraj at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > Inder Salim,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > You forgot that the Kashmiri Pandit community is 100% litter ate,
> so
> >> stop
> >> >> > talking like illiterates. There is no cast ism in Kashmiri Pandits.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > You should be ashamed of yourself Inder. You don't even use Tickoo.
> >> >> > "Aath che wanan laanath". Stop spreading disinformation.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Readers here know clearly; who has political ambitions and is
> trying
> >> to
> >> >> > appease a particular community.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Inder always has a problem with a Hindu.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > God Be with you.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Aditya Raj Kaul
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On 9/24/08, chanchal malviya <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> You ended the mail with the word 'love' and hence I would love to
> >> take
> >> >> this
> >> >> >> discussion ahead...
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Let me put in blunt way:
> >> >> >> Birth of Jesus is under doubt, as Dead Sea Scrolls have revealed
> >> >> existence
> >> >> >> of old testament much before Jesus. The time mentioned for Jesus
> >> birth
> >> >> >> actually takes him in B.C... And moreover, the Kul Devta of Greece
> >> even
> >> >> >> today is 'Isus Chrisn' and not Jesus Christ.. What is meant by
> >> X-Mas...
> >> >> no
> >> >> >> body knows.. then, what is meant by October, November and
> December..
> >> >> meaning
> >> >> >> is not known.. but Oct is Eight (but October is 10th month), Nav
> is 9
> >> >> (but
> >> >> >> November is 11th month), Dec or Dus is 10th month (but December is
> >> 12th
> >> >> >> month)... but X denotes 10 and 'Mas' means month.. thus X-Mas is
> 10th
> >> >> Month
> >> >> >> that is December... and hence X-Mas is celebrated in December...
> Part
> >> of
> >> >> >> December nearly always lies in the 10th month of Hindu Calendar..
> >> >> >> Further.. what is meant by 'Isus' .. no one knows.. it is derived
> >> from
> >> >> >> Hindi word Ishwar... and Christ is reformed shape of Chrisn...
> >> >> >> As world has always produced good and bad minds, some Mr. Paul,
> who
> >> had
> >> >> >> himself shown huge cruelty, created this mischeif.. and maligned
> >> Chrisn
> >> >> Nity
> >> >> >> to Christianity....
> >> >> >> One should believe this, otherwise as I raised questions, all the
> >> words
> >> >> >> become meaningless... and with acceptance of this interpretation,
> >> >> everything
> >> >> >> suddenly becomes meaningful..
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Next came Muhammad.. there is no doubt on his birth and death...
> >> there
> >> >> is
> >> >> >> no controversy also.. But his life is also full of controversy...
> bad
> >> >> and
> >> >> >> good... Unfortunately what he and his followers prepared as texts
> for
> >> >> the
> >> >> >> world is creating instability for humanity... the whole world is
> now
> >> >> moving
> >> >> >> towards killing... Muslims kill.. Hindus retaliate and also
> kill...
> >> this
> >> >> has
> >> >> >> become the practice...
> >> >> >> Unfortunately Muslims do not know that they are also worshiping
> Idols
> >> at
> >> >> >> Qiblah... as there are hundreds of Idols broken down and hidden
> >> inside
> >> >> the
> >> >> >> black stone..
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The difference is as simple as positive and negative -
> >> >> >> Muslims worship idols behind the wall, Hindus worship them before
> the
> >> >> wall
> >> >> >> Muslims worship wall like structure of stone, Hindus worship
> >> beautifully
> >> >> >> carved structure of stone
> >> >> >> Muslims want their Masjids to be blunt without beauty, HIndus want
> >> them
> >> >> to
> >> >> >> be beautifully decorated with creative carvings representing the
> >> >> creation of
> >> >> >> GOD. but both require this temple place..
> >> >> >> Muslims worship in the boundary of time anywhere, HIndus worship
> >> >> timelessly
> >> >> >> anytime their heart allows them at any place in any direction...
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> My question is:
> >> >> >> If worship is the necessity, why is the world fighting on it
> then...
> >> Do
> >> >> >> Muslims and Christians want to say that Hindus do not worship.. If
> >> they
> >> >> do
> >> >> >> not - who is more peaceful and stable..
> >> >> >> Ah. .. again a discussion will start....
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Let this thread no more attack Hindus for their way of
> >> worship....  Let
> >> >> >> anyone who is talking secular must include Islam and Christianity
> >> also
> >> >> in
> >> >> >> their scope of attack...
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> love
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----
> >> >> >> From: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
> >> >> >> To: reader-list at sarai.net
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 10:32:23 AM
> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What Was Written in "Satyadarshini"
> >> Pamphlet
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Dear Chanchal,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> let us ignore, Aditya Raj Kaul, who has clear  political ambition
> to
> >> >> >> talk so lowly regarding issues which are profound and funny at
> times.
> >> >> >> There are some Kauls who believe Tickoos are low caste in
> comparison
> >> >> >> to Dhars , Kauls or Razdans... which amuses me to no end.  Let us
> not
> >> >> >> forget that caste system exists in Kashmiri Pandit community, on
> this
> >> >> >> pretext or that.  You know perhaps, but he will himself come out
> and
> >> >> >> speak, just wait...
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> But i am talking to you. For me it is always funny to talk about
> >> >> >> religion. Imagine, the first artist who visualized Ganesha. This
> is
> >> >> >> simple problem of proportion for an artist as and when she/he
> starts
> >> >> >> to drawi the figure on a surface. The moment you place an
> Elephant's
> >> >> >> Head on Human  body, it looks  disproportional and unaesthetic, so
> >> the
> >> >> >> pot belly. It amuses me, that how this figure becomes the most
> sacred
> >> >> >> composition, when there are thousand other surreal images in Hindu
> >> >> >> iconography,  It is very normal for  Hindu believers to see
> sexuality
> >> >> >> as part of their belief systems. How can we separate  Krishan from
> >> his
> >> >> >> Gopis, how can remove surgically a Ligum from Yoni which
> represents
> >> >> >> Male and Female fertility...
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> there are one million  MF  Hussains,  much better than HUssains,
> >> >> >> already exiting in Hindu iconography,  I dont see there is a need
> to
> >> >> >> compare that with Judo-Christian-Islamic iconography.   That is
> >> >> >> entirely different. In Hinduism , discourse on sexuality can
> happen
> >> >> >> within the system of beleif, without guilt, which is not the case
> >> with
> >> >> >> the later. There has to a Freud, distinctly far away from  a
> >> synagogue
> >> >> >> or a  church to speak on sexuality and its relevance in society.
> >> >> >> Have not Arabs written about sexuality, or done research on
> chemicals
> >> >> >> and mathematics.  Decorative art can come only from such a
> society.
> >> >> >> And i see amazing decorative art in Islamic iconography, which is
> not
> >> >> >> only sensual but highly aesthetic at the same time. And what about
> >> >> >> Sufis. Ghazal means to talk to a woman, which clearly
> indicates  that
> >> >> >> there is an endless  desire to talk about sexuality. And besides
> that
> >> >> >> there are most interesting paintings which have happened in
> different
> >> >> >> ages under different rulers. But if fanatics demolish them or burn
> >> >> >> them, it does not mean that nothing has happened, and nothing is
> >> >> >> happenning in islamic world .
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> All we need to is to strengthen the moderate voices within Islam,
> but
> >> >> >> if we keep on comparing this with that in a narrower sense, we
> will
> >> >> >> get nothing but 'hurt'
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Both the ends of world have come out with their  own ways of
> living,
> >> >> >> and that is it.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Here, what surprises me is the fact that Hussain drawing were
> >> >> >> criticzed by Muslims Fundamentalist and Danish cartoon were
> equally
> >> >> >> criticized by Hindu right wingers.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> That is why   we need to be careful to see what they both are
> doing.
> >> >> >> I know some  Chruchs  indulge in this kind of publication,
> to  tease
> >> >> >> the Hindu mind, but if Hindus see it as a virtue in  their  system
> of
> >> >> >> of belief,  the Hindu Religion,  then it wont nurture hate in
> their
> >> >> >> hearts.  But we  listen to  a Parveen Tagodia,  a would be parveen
> ,
> >> >> >> here, named as Aditya Raj and even Bal Thakery ,  And in Mumbai
> where
> >> >> >> there was no one left to listen to their 'Bakwas', they began to
> >> drive
> >> >> >> North Indians our of Maharashtra.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> love
> >> >> >> is
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 8:48 AM, chanchal malviya
> >> >> >> <chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> > Your metaphors are not objectionable Mr Inder... And Hindus will
> >> not
> >> >> get
> >> >> >> > angry if it is brought into discussion... Hindus get angry when
> >> these
> >> >> >> things
> >> >> >> > are highlighted against them and used to break them from their
> >> faith..
> >> >> >> > By the way one question: Why don't your metaphor include some
> >> stories
> >> >> of
> >> >> >> > Muhammad as well?
> >> >> >> > If you could do this, as we and the whole world already know
> many,
> >> >> your
> >> >> >> > metaphor would sound secular... else it appears that your
> metaphor
> >> >> again
> >> >> >> is
> >> >> >> > meant to pin-point any other Religion than Islam...
> >> >> >> > Please modify your metaphor and it would be a healthy
> discussion...
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > ----- Original Message ----
> >> >> >> > From: inder salim <indersalim at gmail.com>
> >> >> >> > To: reader-list at sarai.net
> >> >> >> > Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 11:14:25 PM
> >> >> >> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] What Was Written in "Satyadarshini"
> >> >> Pamphlet
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > thanks pawan ji  for forwarding the pamphlet contents....
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > for me these are metaphors, only half educated person will take
> >> these
> >> >> >> > details of these characters as real. The illiterate and poor
> Hindus
> >> of
> >> >> >> > India are simple believers.  People  who know how to manipulate
> >> these
> >> >> >> > simple folks are concerned with their personal gains, just their
> >> axe
> >> >> >> > to grind.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Metaphors:- for example,  Veda Vyasa  of Mahabarata was grand
> >> father
> >> >> >> > of both warring factions of the final great war. The epic is
> such
> >> that
> >> >> >> > if we dont remember who is legitimate and who is illegitimate ,
> the
> >> >> >> > war itself becomes meaningless. So, the moment we realize there
> is
> >> >> >> > nothing called legitimate or illegitimate we  resolve the
> conflict,
> >> >> >> > which was fought fo good against bad.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Hindu epics are in fact full of such fantastic ways of coming to
> >> life.
> >> >> >> > Everybody knows. For example Ganesha was created by Paravati
> from
> >> the
> >> >> >> > dirt of her own body, even when Lord Shiva, her husband was not
> >> >> >> > around.. But this will never enrage the Hindu mind, because
> Parvati
> >> is
> >> >> >> > Shakti and she is fully equipped to bring anything to life on
> her
> >> own.
> >> >> >> > It is quite similar to Jesus coming to life from Mary surrounded
> by
> >> >> >> > domestic animals only,  No fuss. But if someone  will point out
> >> that
> >> >> >> > Rama's father was believer of  polygamy, it might look offensive
> to
> >> >> >> > some of Hindus.  It all depends who is saying and who is
> listening.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > A prostitute is a woman like any other respectable woman, like
> an
> >> >> >> > illegitimate child, who is as respectable as any other child.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > I am conscious about the fact that you will demand to speak
> freely
> >> on
> >> >> >> > other religious characters as well,  but that might be not be
> easy
> >> >> >> > because some of  the believers blend history and faith too
> >> intensely.
> >> >> >> > I see no gain in that, but that becomes a dangerous zone to
> enter,
> >> >> >> > unless one has a deep creative urge to take the bull by horns.
> >> choice
> >> >> >> > is yours.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Efforts by some fanatic hindus to mix fantasy of the epics with
> >> >> >> > temporality will bear no fruits in the end. India has a deep
> >> >> >> > past...good to feel.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > with love
> >> >> >> > is
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 9:02 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज्
> >> >> >> > <mail at shivamvij.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> I think it is not enough to merely condemn "both acts" and thus
> >> >> equate
> >> >> >> >> them.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> I think what is required is the rule of law - the writers of
> this
> >> >> >> >> pamphlet may be charged with the laws against spreading
> communal
> >> >> >> >> disharmony; indeed someone could have gone to court, arguing
> for a
> >> >> ban
> >> >> >> >> on the public distribution of such pamphlets. The writers and
> >> >> >> >> publishers could have defended the charge or pleaded guilty.
> The
> >> >> court
> >> >> >> >> could have decided the issue according to the law of the land
> laid
> >> >> >> >> down by the Constitution of India.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Instead, the "offended" parties chose to take the law in their
> own
> >> >> >> >> hands, and deserve to be tried in a court of law irrespective
> of
> >> what
> >> >> >> >> the provocation was. Whether or not you and I condemn either or
> >> both
> >> >> >> >> acts is irrelevant. It is important that the law take its own
> >> course,
> >> >> >> >> be allowed to take its own course, that those guilty of
> violating
> >> the
> >> >> >> >> law be brought to book. It is this process of justice delivery
> >> that
> >> >> we
> >> >> >> >> must all demand, not just mere issuance of condemnations.
> Bringing
> >> >> the
> >> >> >> >> guilty to book would also send out a message to all kinds of
> >> fanatics
> >> >> >> >> that India is not a Hindu, Christian, Muslim, Sikh or Buddhist
> >> >> >> >> country. It is a democratic, secular republic.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> best
> >> >> >> >> shivam
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Pawan Durani <
> >> >> pawan.durani at gmail.com>
> >> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> >>> The pamphlet which caused attacks on churches had the
> following
> >> >> >> contents.
> >> >> >> >>> Personally i condemn both what was written on the pamphlet as
> >> well
> >> >> as
> >> >> >> >>> attacks on the churches, as that is not what is the answer to
> a
> >> >> >> nonsense
> >> >> >> >>> in
> >> >> >> >>> a educated society.
> >> >> >> >>> However the people who incited this through distribution of
> >> >> pamphlets
> >> >> >> >>> need
> >> >> >> >>> to be condemned , for being the reason to cause all
> >> >> >> >>> this unpleasant situation
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> ************************************************************************************************************************************************************
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>> Abuse No. 1: Urvashi – the daughter of Narayana– is a
> prostitute.
> >> >> >> >>> Vashitha
> >> >> >> >>> is the son of this prostitute.  He in turn married his own
> >> >> >> Mother.  Such
> >> >> >> >>> a
> >> >> >> >>> degraded person is the Guru of the Hindu God Rama. (page 48)
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>> *buse no. 2: Wh**en Krishna himself is wallowing in darkness
> of
> >> >> hell,
> >> >> >> how
> >> >> >> >>> can he enlighten others?  Since  **Krishna** himself is a
> shady
> >> >> >> >>> character,
> >> >> >> >>> there is a need for us to  liberate his misled followers.
> (page
> >> 50)*
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>> Abuse no. 3: t was Brahma himself who kidnapped Sita.  Since
> >> Brahma,
> >> >> >> >>> Vishnu
> >> >> >> >>> and Shiva were themselves the victims of lust, it is a sin to
> >> >> consider
> >> >> >> >>> them
> >> >> >> >>> as Gods. (page 39)
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>> Abuse No. 4: When the Trinity of Hinduism (Brahma, Vishnu and
> >> Shiva)
> >> >> >> are
> >> >> >> >>> consumed by lust and anger, how can they liberate
> others.  Their
> >> >> >> >>> projection
> >> >> >> >>> as Gods is nothing but a joke. (page 39).
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>> buse No.5:  Vishnu asked Brahma to commit a sin, he
> immediately
> >> did
> >> >> so.
> >> >> >> >>> How
> >> >> >> >>> can such a "evil brahma" be a Creator of this Universe?  How
> is
> >> it
> >> >> >> >>> possible
> >> >> >> >>> for both the sinner and the entity which provoked the sin to
> be
> >> >> gods?
> >> >> >> >>> (page
> >> >> >> >>> 39)
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>> *Abuse No. 6: God, please liberate the sinful people of
> **India**
> >> >> who
> >> >> >> are
> >> >> >> >>> worshipping False Gods  that believe in the pleasures
> of  illicit
> >> >> >> >>> 'Vyabichari' relationships. (Page 39).*
> >> >> >> >>> _________________________________________
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> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> --
> >> >> >> >> National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/
> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________
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> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > --
> >> >> >> >
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> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > _________________________________________
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> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> --
> >> >> >>
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> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> _________________________________________
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> >> >> --
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> >>
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> >>
> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com
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