[Reader-list] Myths, Mangoes and ordered houses - re: 10 myths about pakistan

Rahul Asthana rahul_capri at yahoo.com
Tue Jan 20 06:09:52 IST 2009


Dear Yasir,
The point I was trying to make earlier was that since JUD engages into a lot of charitable activities as well,it can solicit funds openly and then use it for training terrorists. Even the donors won't know how the funds are being appropriated.
Another impression from the news items that I have gone through is that Pakistan Govt does not seem to have the will to restrain Hafiz Saeed LET/JUD.It seems to me that LET\JUD will be allowed to carry its activities if it is not in the international eye.
But your point is well taken.
I also want to know your opinion on the Kamran Shafi piece that I posted.He seems to be of the view that ISI\Army etc are using the Taliban as a cash cow.They are not going after them whole-heartedly because they want to keep playing them for alms from the US.The civil war scenario is a only a half-truth.
Thanks
Rahul
--- On Tue, 1/20/09, yasir ~يا سر <yasir.media at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: yasir ~يا سر <yasir.media at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Myths, Mangoes and ordered houses - re: 10 myths about pakistan
> To: "sarai list" <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Date: Tuesday, January 20, 2009, 5:27 AM
> Dear Kshmendra,
> 
> underground = not public
> therefore the statement is exact:
> "anything since then is underground and not
> tolerated".
> 
> if however the breach occurs in parts which are already
> under rebellion and
> fighting the state : waziristan (2006 story),  or banned
> outfits who have
> been locked up and sent to guantanamo (Mush is accused of
> selling 600
> people) - your bad jihadis  then that cant be public.
> infact they were the
> waziristanis were looting banks in karachi to finance their
> war against the
> Pak army & US. that takes care of the waziristan item.
> 
> The MMA story (2003) is when they were in negotiations with
> Mush (for money)
> to okay the LFO legitimizing Mush's Army
> rule/presidency extension. in any
> case MMA was a nonstarter as a party coalition and were
> under army
> control/maneuvering. this is pure & empty populism in
> the name of religion.
> iit is meaningless nonsense.
> 
> The qurbani hides story is the most recent (2008) and shows
> how utterly
> powerless or oblivious the state is at the moment, to the
> internal groups
> who may or may not be challenging the state, with their own
> agenda, like JuD
> (in Punjab, NWFP and Islamabad.) I agree with zaffar abbas
> that zardari may
> not like this happening, but some elements might be
> sheltering them and
> their funds. i would not call this 'public' either.
> this might be  the
> çlosest case', but things are very murky at the moment
> - what is and is not
> in govt control.
> 
> The tensions can be seen in the asia times story (2005) and
> also in the one
> sent by Rahul.  However to say that this is the norm in
> parts of punjab,
> nwfp and islamabad, I will have to check that, although i
> dont discount it,
> particularly given elements such as laal masjid in
> islamabad and groups
> originating in punjab, and the govt's history. With the
> current tensions on
> both borders and in fata, bajaur & swat, no one knows
> whats happening.
> 
> as for your curious classification of jihadis: good (anti
> india), bad
> (pro-talibanization) and tolerant (anti-US &India,
> non-talibanization), yes
> i agree the good is the worst problem, but i dont see
> anything even close to
> matching pre-1999 scenario of the jihadis, their open
> offices, and
> collection boxes in shops & outfits, and the oppressive
> gloom and pall over
> the country - the taliban being supported bt the govt. (pre
> 9/11).
> 
> I think we are in civil war at the moment, precisely
> because of the US
> theatre in Afghanistan and bombing inside the Pakistan
> border, and the 60
> year-old mutual war rhetoric with India over kashmir. It is
> in no one's
> interest that the good, bad or tolerant jihadis win, and
> that's what hangs
> over us. the agendas have overtaken the state. the tolerant
> jihadis cant
> win, the good cant really be helped unless Kashmir goes
> away - they can
> cause mayhem. the bad - children of the US afghan war
> effort, taken up by
> the pakistanis - will not back down unless the US goes away
> and Pakistan
> Army regrets having bombed them - vow to reduce society to
> Stone Age - they
> dont mind being bombed into the Stone age - they are there.
> 
> Having said that the overall numbers are small.
> 
> you imply esp in your reference to the tolerant ones, that
> being anti-US or
> anti-India amounts to being jihadi. Is that true? at least
> you dont
> distinguish nationalism/patriotism from "jihad".
> If you do i am confident
> the number in this group, which you say is the largest,
> will plummet -
> besides the economic problems are just eating into incomes
> at the moment -
> and people do know the futility of war.
> 
> best
> 
> yasir
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 6:24 PM, Kshmendra Kaul
> <kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com>wrote:
> 
> > Dear Yasir
> >
> > Having aligned Pakistan with USA in the 'war
> against terror', Musharraf
> > could ill-afford the publicly blatant calls for
> raising money for "Jihad"
> > that were rampant all over Pakistan. "Jihad"
> and "Jihadist" could not be
> > allowed to be the public face of Pakistan. They had to
> be managed/controlled
> > for effective use.
> >
> > It would be ridiculous to suggest that the 2002
> 'ban' seriously dented or
> > completely sent 'underground' the raising of
> money for Jihad. Igf nothing
> > else Mosques with "Jihadi pulpits" and
> Madrassas with "Jihadi agendas"
> > (including the 'donation boxes' on their
> premises) have automatically been
> > fund raising places for "Jihad"
> >
> > As some have commentated, Musharraf and
> 'establishment' (read ISI) sought
> > to bring about a distinction between "Good
> Jihadis" (those who were to wage
> > Jihad against India) and the "Bad Jihadis"
> (who want Talibisation of
> > Pakistan). Then there are also the "we dont
> really know how to deal with
> > them Jihadis" who are sworn enemies of USA and
> India but could live with a
> > Non-Talibanised Pakistan. In my opinion, this category
> forms the largest
> > group and also reflects the thinking of the majority
> of Pakistanis.
> >
> > Squeeze on the (never can be eliminated) funding of
> the "Bad Jihadis" did
> > not stop the Pakistani Establishment from turning a
> convienient blind eye to
> > the raising of funds by the "Good Jihadis"
> or their operating quite openly
> > all over Pakistan. They did so not with impunity but
> with the blessings of
> > the Pakistani Establishment.
> >
> > Your statement "cleaned-up in 2002 ..... anything
> since then is underground
> > and not
> > tolerated" is a non-fact.
> >
> > A few reports. All post 2002:
> >
> > 1. 
> http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/GC11Df07.html
> >
> > In "The jihad lives on" (March 2005), Amir
> Mir writes:
> >
> > "The Lashkar leadership describes Hindus and Jews
> as the main enemies of
> > Islam, claiming India and Israel to be the main
> enemies of Pakistan. The
> > donation boxes of the Lashkar and the Dawa, which had
> initially
> > disappeared after the January 2002 ban, have
> reappeared in public places, as
> > well as mosques all over Punjab."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > " While banning six leading jihadi and sectarian
> groups in two phases - on
> > January 12, 2002, and November 15, 2003 - Musharraf
> had declared that no
> > organization or person would be allowed to indulge in
> terrorism to further
> > its cause. However, after the initial crackdown, the
> four major jihadi
> > outfits operating from Pakistan - Lashkar-e-Toiba
> (LeT), Jaish-e-Mohammad
> > (JeM), Harkat-ul-Mujahideen (HuM) and
> Hizb-ul-Mujahideen (HM), resurfaced
> > and regrouped effectively to run their respective
> networks as openly as
> > before, though under different names."
> >
> >
> >
> > "Hafiz Mohammad Saeed, Maulana Masood Azhar,
> Maulana Fazalur Rehman Khalil
> > and Syed Salahuddin - the respective leaders of these
> organizations - are
> > again on the loose. The pattern of treatment being
> meted out to these
> > leading lights of jihad by the Musharraf-led
> administration shows that they
> > are being kept on the leash, ostensibly to wage a
> controlled jihad in Jammu
> > & Kashmir (J&K)."
> >
> > 2. http://www.dawn.com/2003/02/06/nat34.htm
> >
> > In the report "Jihad only solution to
> occupation" (Feb 2003):
> >
> > "Despite official ban the JI and Hizbul
> Mujahideen had set up donation camp
> > at Khyber Bazaar and distributed pamphlets, carrying
> Jihadi messages."
> >
> > 3. http://www.dawn.com/2006/11/06/top7.htm
> >
> > Some relevant extracts from this report (Nov 2006):
> >
> > "A Shura (council) of militant groups in the
> North and South Waziristan
> > ......appoint a committee to collect donations to
> finance Mujahideen's
> > activities."
> >
> >
> >
> > " "Nobody will be allowed to collect
> donations and the amount collected as
> > donation will be utilised for bearing expenses of the
> activities of
> > Mujahideen," according to one pamphlet."
> >
> > 4. http://www.dawn.com/2008/12/14/top9.htm
> >
> > Not much is left to imagination in the slogan quoted
> in this Dec 2008
> > report on the collection of the hides of animals
> sacrificed at the time of
> > Eid ul Adha:
> >
> > " "QURBANI ki khalain un ke liye ... gin ka
> lahu Islam ke liye" (Hides of
> > sacrificial animals for those who dedicate/shed their
> blood for Islam). So
> > says a bold inscription on a big plastic bag meant for
> stuffing and carrying
> > such hides."
> >
> >
> >
> > Kshmendra
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On *Mon, 1/19/09, yasir ~يا سر
> <yasir.media at gmail.com>* wrote:
> >
> > From: yasir ~يا سر <yasir.media at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Myths, Mangoes and ordered
> houses - re: 10 myths
> > about pakistan
> > To: "sarai list"
> <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > Date: Monday, January 19, 2009, 3:00 PM
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 4:45 AM, Rahul Asthana
> > <rahul_capri at yahoo.com
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > There are/were jihadi donation boxes in all the
> major cities of Pakistan.
> >
> > Those, along with wall chalkings for 'jihadi camp
> training' were
> > cleaned up
> > by Musharraf in around 2002. so anything since then is
> underground and not
> > tolerated.
> > _________________________________________
> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the
> city.
> > Critiques & Collaborations
> > To subscribe: send an email to
> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in
> > the subject header.
> > To unsubscribe:
> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list
> > List archive:
> &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> >
> >
> >
> _________________________________________
> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.
> Critiques & Collaborations
> To subscribe: send an email to
> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject
> header.
> To unsubscribe:
> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list 
> List archive:
> &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>


      


More information about the reader-list mailing list