[Reader-list] On confusions regarding the term 'pan-Islamic'.

Taha Mehmood 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com
Tue Jan 20 10:02:24 IST 2009


Dear Lalit,

Thank you for replying back.

Let us see what this mails suggests -

-Coming at a time when the country is yet to get over the shock  of the
recent 26-29/11 Mumbai carnage that was executed by the Pakistani pan
Islamists, your query on the face of it does not really deserve a response.-

So if a country X is yet to get back from a crisis Y executed by a country Z
which has religion A as its State religion, then X should not make any
efforts to understand Y, define Y, talk about and entertain different
perspectives on Y, different interpretations on Y, Is that what you intend
to imply? or specifically you don't want to respond to Mumbai Carnage and
the alleged role of a completely bizarre and confusing phenomena called 'pan
islamism' only because of whatever reasons. Could you please clarify this?

After having read your mail, it seems, that one must  assume without caring
for any substantiated facts that there exists something called
'pan-islamism'. In mumbai terror attacks Sir!, one third of those killed
were Muslims. Please tell me where in this world would you find a notion
with a 'pan' prefix which indulges in blatant, ruthless and cold murder of
its own kind.

-I have said it before on this forum & I repeat pan Islamic terror is not
synonymous with Muslim faith-

I do not think that you are wrong here but at the same time I think the use
of 'pan' prefix with Islam produces a general sort of meaning which
obfuscates rather than clarifies. It seems as if a small brand is poaching a
bigger brand by naming itself on the lines of the older, established brand.

Please tell me are all Muslims 'pan-Islamists'? Are all 'pan-Islamists'
truly Muslims? or don't you feel that some distinction must be made between
all those who follow Islam but are not 'pan-islamists' and all those who are
'pan-islamists' but do not follow Islam and all those 'pan-islamists' who
follow Islam (but only a certain kind of Islamic ideology, like Wahaibism,
or Hanafism, or Salafism etc) and all those who are not practicing Muslims
but were born in a family that follows Islam and who are 'pan-islamists' and
all those who are practicing Muslims and were born in a family that was does
not follow Islam but who follow 'pan-islamism' and so on?

Must we, then for instance, start blaming the entire Hindu religion for the
blood of every innocent who died in Kandhamol?

-And for the 'meaning' you must direct this query to the proponents of pan
Islamism- those who believe in 'Azadi- bara- e- Islam'-

The assumption here seems to be that if members of X group say something
about Y religion, then we must always consider X's position on Y as valid,
provided people of X group must appear to have belonged to Y religion? Is
this what you are trying to imply? Then, for instance, by the way of an
example, should from tomorrow onwards, especially those who are in India
must earnestly start believing only those thoughts, worldviews, belief
systems, opinions and ideas on say 'Hinduisim' as those propagated by the
RSS and the BJP, which interprets, this truly beautiful  religion in a
narrow, a sectarian and in a regressive manner?or take only that those views
about Christianity as those propagated by Ku Klux Klan or Nazis? or develop
a worldview about Judaism by only following an interpretation given by
Zionists?

-What is it that drives a young Birmingham born Bilal of Pakistani origin to
come all the way to Srinagar to commit car suicide bombing or what is that
motivates Bangluru born space engineer Kafil to blow him self up at the
faraway Glasgow airport  ????-

Let us see what's the argument here- if an individual  X who interprets a
religion Y in a particular manner which motivates him to commit an act of
violence resulting in injury or loss of life or property belonging to Z
people then the whole religion with its complicated history, its diverse
value systems, its differing beliefs systems, its contrasting manners must
be blamed.

If this is what you are implying, then can you please guide me towards an
instance where we have in this world, a religion that has not seen murder,
rape, mindless killing, and torture in its name? or if this not what are
implying because you feel that two wrongs do not make a right, then should
we start prosecuting all those religions whose members who are private
individuals, lunatics really, of deranged mentality, have indulged in a
willful act of violence?

Hence, should we then start sounding really stupid by blaming the entire
Hindu religion by what a Sadhvi Pragya has done?

-Why does a community remain silent when the symbol of Kashmiriyat –Chare
Sharif is singed by a Pakistani mercenary Mast Gul in full view of the
cheering crowds?-

Again the assumption seems to be if the X members of a community Y who
follow a religion Z do not speak in their individual capacity about an act
of violence inflected by A members of their Y community against X members of
community Y, then going by this rather clear logic, we must conclude that,
surely this must amply demonstrate the existence of an overarching
phenomena, a 'pan-Z' mentality which is stopping X members who follow
religion Z to not to say something.

Is that what you want to imply? or you may want to talk in specific terms
and try to access specific motivations and specific intentions about
specific acts that happened at specific spaces in specific period of time. I
think that given the clarity of logic and the precise nature of reasoning we
can spare ourselves the trouble of devising a counter example in this case.

> And why is it that their co religionists  in rest of India do not speak
 up against  the proponents of Azadi bara e Islam who aspire  to  join the
Jinah's land of the pure.>


So if X members of community Y who belong to religion Z and do not speak
against a desire of W'' members of A,B and C community who also belong to Z
religion then surely this must act as fundamental proof of allegiance of an
larger mentality or a larger belief system which is binding everyone in a
conspiracy of silence. Is this what you imply? Please elaborate.

> Common Taha, you know it well what pan Islamism is all about. It is a
threat –it exists.
>

Dear Lalit, could I kindly ask you to not 'common me', because there is
nothing to be 'commoned about' frankly and I would feel grateful if you
could please take some time to respond. Because even by your rather clear,
precise, logical explanation on 'pan-islamism' supported by a breath taking
range of examples and historical events I do not know what 'pan-Islamism' is
all about.

In itself I find 'pan-islamism' an obscure term, a confusing term and an
highly open term which allows itself to be interpreted in any manner.

I would like to think of your effort to explain pan islamism as a huge
service to my understanding and in the same breath may I ask you share your
insights on this creature called Muslim Indian or Indian Muslim as you have
implied in you mail.

I think as a generic socio-religious category the epithet 'Indian Muslim' is
again very confusing and vague to me. Could you please tell me what do you
mean when you use a term like Indian Muslim? Because as far as I know there
are kinds of Muslims as there are kinds of Hindus and Kinds of Christians
and kinds of Jews etc

Amongst Muslims too social and caste hierarchies have existed from a long
long time. In twentieth century these hierarchies were so deep rooted and
prevalent, that it drove a Kashmiri Brahmin convert to Islam to exhort
muslims as thus-

Munaffat Eik Hai Is Quam Ke Nuksaan Bhi Eik
Eik Hi Sab Ka Nabi, Deen Bhi Imaan Bhi Eik
Harm E Paak Bhi Alaah Bhi , KurAan Bhi Eik
Kuch Badi Baat Thi , Hotey Jo Musalmaa Bhi Eik

Firka Bandi Hai Kahen Aur Kayee Zaatey Hain
Kya Zamaney Me Panapne Ki Yahin Batein Hain

Yu To Sayyed Bhi , Mirza Bhi Ho Afghan Bhi Ho
Tum Sab Kuch Ho Batao  toh, Musalmaa Bhi Ho

Seen from my perspective 'pan- islamism' is a very dominant perception which
benefits both the Hindu and the Muslim right. As of now I do not understand
this idea at all but I want to, if this idea or notion exists, hence I feel
that there is all the more need to work it out as a specific concept, as a
set of value system, a broader world view and so on.

Warm regards

Taha





On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Lalit Ambardar <lalitambardar at hotmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Dear Taha,
>
> Coming at a time when the country is yet to get over the shock  of the
recent 26-29/11 Mumbai carnage that was executed by the Pakistani pan
Islamists, your query on the face of it does not really deserve a response.
>
>
>
>  I have said it before on this forum & I repeat pan Islamic terror is not
synonymous with Muslim faith nor are Muslim Indians in any way different
from other Indians following other faiths – all have equal stakes in this
country. Therefore, we must raise our voice against the menace of pan
Islamic terrorism as it affects us all.
>
>
>
> And for the 'meaning' you must direct this query to the proponents of pan
Islamism- those who believe in 'Azadi- bara- e- Islam'- those who subjected
Kashmiri Hindu Pandits to ethnic cleansing in the name of establishing
'Nizame Mustafa' with out Kashmiri Hindu men but along with the Kashmiri
Hindu women.
>
>
>
> What is it that drives a young Birmingham born Bilal of Pakistani origin
to come all the way to Srinagar to commit car suicide bombing or what is
that motivates Bangluru born space engineer Kafil to blow him self up at the
faraway Glasgow airport  ????....
>
>
>
>  Why does a community remain silent when the symbol of Kashmiriyat –Chare
Sharif is singed by a Pakistani mercenary Mast Gul in full view of the
cheering crowds?
>
> And why is it that their co religionists  in rest of India do not speak
 up against  the proponents of Azadi bara e Islam who aspire  to  join the
Jinah's land of the pure.
>
>
>
> Agreed, Islam is not a homogenous entity. But there is a crude attempt to
forge homogeneity & that is where the the problem arises.
>
>
>
> Common Taha, you know it well what pan Islamism is all about. It is a
threat –it exists.
>
> Regards
>
> LA
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 02:56:29 +0000
> > Subject: On confusions regarding the term 'pan-Islamic'.
> > From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com
> > To: lalitambardar at hotmail.com
> > CC: reader-list at sarai.net
> >
> > Dear Lallit,
> >
> > Thank you for posting your comments.
> >
> > Could you please elaborate on what you mean by pan Islamic terror?
> > Because I believe that there is no such thing as pan-islamic. The
> > reason for this is I think, in so far as my understanding of Islam
> > goes, Islam is not a homogeneous entity. Hence if it is not a
> > homogeneous entity then why do you feel it appropriate to use the this
> > tag?
> >
> > Furthermore I would also like to know your thoughts on what do you
> > mean by Islam? Is it a precise concept? If it is then could you kindly
> > define it? If it is not then may I ask you to please enlighten us with
> > your insights regarding the broad limits of this term.
> >
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Taha
> >
> > David Miliband's poor taste & judgement were also visible when he shot
> > his mouth & attributed the scourge of pan Islamic terror that has been
> > targetting India for the past two decdes to what he thought was
> > "Kashmir issue".
> > Would somebody ask him whether the Glassgow Airpor suicide bombing
> > by the Bangluru born aerospace engineert or
> > Srinagar 2000 X-mas eve car suicide bombing by the Barmingham born
> > (Of Pakistani origin ) Bilal & London train bombings or Madrid train
> > bombings or even 9/11 World Trade Centre bombings were executed
> > because of his fancied 'Kashmir issue'.
> > It seems , prior to his departure ,he was briefed by the powerful
> > Pakistani Mirpuris & other London based anti India pan Islamists.
> > It was shocking to see in the media our own 'royal PM' in making
> > hobnobbing with the visiting 'royal fool 'while our foreign affairs
> > spokesperson wanted the visiting guest keep his mouth shut.
> > Regards all
> > LA
>
>
> ________________________________
> See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family

On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Lalit Ambardar <lalitambardar at hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Dear Taha,
>
> Coming at a time when the country is yet to get over the shock  of the
> recent 26-29/11 Mumbai carnage that was executed by the Pakistani pan
> Islamists, your query on the face of it does not really deserve a
response.
>
>
>
>  I have said it before on this forum & I repeat pan Islamic terror is not
> synonymous with Muslim faith nor are Muslim Indians in any way different
> from other Indians following other faiths – all have equal stakes in this
> country. Therefore, we must raise our voice against the menace of pan
> Islamic terrorism as it affects us all.
>
>
>
> And for the 'meaning' you must direct this query to the proponents of pan
> Islamism- those who believe in 'Azadi- bara- e- Islam'- those who
subjected
> Kashmiri Hindu Pandits to ethnic cleansing in the name of establishing
> 'Nizame Mustafa' with out Kashmiri Hindu men but along with the Kashmiri
> Hindu women.
>
>
>
> What is it that drives a young Birmingham born Bilal of Pakistani origin
to
> come all the way to Srinagar to commit car suicide bombing or what is that
> motivates Bangluru born space engineer Kafil to blow him self up at the
> faraway Glasgow airport  ????....
>
>
>
>  Why does a community remain silent when the symbol of Kashmiriyat –Chare
> Sharif is singed by a Pakistani mercenary Mast Gul in full view of the
> cheering crowds?
>
> And why is it that their co religionists  in rest of India do not speak
 up
> against  the proponents of Azadi bara e Islam who aspire  to  join the
> Jinah's land of the pure.
>
>
>
> Agreed, Islam is not a homogenous entity. But there is a crude attempt to
> forge homogeneity & that is where the the problem arises.
>
>
>
> Common Taha, you know it well what pan Islamism is all about. It is a
threat
> –it exists.
>
> Regards
>
> LA
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 02:56:29 +0000
>> Subject: On confusions regarding the term 'pan-Islamic'.
>> From: 2tahamehmood at googlemail.com
>> To: lalitambardar at hotmail.com
>> CC: reader-list at sarai.net
>>
>> Dear Lallit,
>>
>> Thank you for posting your comments.
>>
>> Could you please elaborate on what you mean by pan Islamic terror?
>> Because I believe that there is no such thing as pan-islamic. The
>> reason for this is I think, in so far as my understanding of Islam
>> goes, Islam is not a homogeneous entity. Hence if it is not a
>> homogeneous entity then why do you feel it appropriate to use the this
>> tag?
>>
>> Furthermore I would also like to know your thoughts on what do you
>> mean by Islam? Is it a precise concept? If it is then could you kindly
>> define it? If it is not then may I ask you to please enlighten us with
>> your insights regarding the broad limits of this term.
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Taha
>>
>> David Miliband's poor taste & judgement were also visible when he shot
>> his mouth & attributed the scourge of pan Islamic terror that has been
>> targetting India for the past two decdes to what he thought was
>> "Kashmir issue".
>> Would somebody ask him whether the Glassgow Airpor suicide bombing
>> by the Bangluru born aerospace engineert or
>> Srinagar 2000 X-mas eve car suicide bombing by the Barmingham born
>> (Of Pakistani origin ) Bilal & London train bombings or Madrid train
>> bombings or even 9/11 World Trade Centre bombings were executed
>> because of his fancied 'Kashmir issue'.
>> It seems , prior to his departure ,he was briefed by the powerful
>> Pakistani Mirpuris & other London based anti India pan Islamists.
>> It was shocking to see in the media our own 'royal PM' in making
>> hobnobbing with the visiting 'royal fool 'while our foreign affairs
>> spokesperson wanted the visiting guest keep his mouth shut.
>> Regards all
>> LA
>
>
> ________________________________
> See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family


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