[Reader-list] The Epitaph of a Mind: Vir Sanghvi

Yousuf ysaeed7 at yahoo.com
Fri Mar 27 10:43:57 IST 2009 

Dear Vedavati
I am not a defender of Pakistan or Pakistani Muslims. Personally I don't care if they are different or the same or an evil or whatever. I was only reacting to Vir Sanghvi's write-up who presents the most shallow and immature reasons to prove that they are not the same as us. If you read your mail carefully, I have made it very clear, and I quote again:

"If Pakistanis are not the same people as us (Indians) simply because over last 60 years they have grown to become something else (something of an evil), haven't we Indians grown to become something else? What makes Mr.Sanghvi think that among the twins separated at birth one has gone in the right direction while the other one has been spoiled. But talking about the same-ness, at one level even the residents of Amritsar and Lahore have been very different (even before 1947), and at another level, the people of Kabul and Kandhamal are the same, even today." 

Let me know what you find wrong in the above statement.

cheers

Yousuf


--- On Fri, 3/27/09, Vedavati Jogi <vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Vedavati Jogi <vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Epitaph of a Mind: Vir Sanghvi
> To: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com
> Date: Friday, March 27, 2009, 10:29 AM
>
> first let me know what made you think that there is no
> difference between 'them' and 'us'?
>  
> vedavati
> 
> --- On Thu, 26/3/09, Yousuf <ysaeed7 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Yousuf <ysaeed7 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Epitaph of a Mind: Vir
> Sanghvi
> To: "Vedavati Jogi"
> <vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com>, "sarai list"
> <reader-list at sarai.net>
> Date: Thursday, 26 March, 2009, 7:29 PM
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Vedavati ji
> Even I don't have an answer to that question. Maybe its
> there in my genes: to love the Pakistani Muslims. I think I
> should get my "P" gene surgically removed, and get
> the enemy gene inserted.
> 
> By the way, what in my previous mail made you think that I,
> being an Indian Muslim, have an affinity to Pakistani
> Muslims? 
> 
> Yousuf
> 
> 
> --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Vedavati Jogi
> <vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > From: Vedavati Jogi <vedavati_jogi at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Epitaph of a Mind: Vir
> Sanghvi
> > To: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com
> > Date: Thursday, March 26, 2009, 4:02 PM
> 
> > one thing i don't understand, 'why do indian
> > muslims like you possess so much affinity for
> > pakistani muslims'? you may or may not accept,
> but most
> > of the indian population look upon them as enemies .
> > vedavati
> 
> > 
> > --- On Thu, 26/3/09, Yousuf <ysaeed7 at yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > From: Yousuf <ysaeed7 at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Epitaph of a Mind: Vir
> > Sanghvi
> > To: "Sarai" <reader-list at sarai.net>,
> > "Wali Arifi" <waliarifi3 at gmail.com>
> > Date: Thursday, 26 March, 2009, 2:43 PM
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Thanks Wali Arifi for posting this write-up.
> > I am amazed at the shallowness of the analysis made by
> such
> > an experienced journalist. If one can get to know
> about the
> > people of a certain country simply by observing the
> most
> > apparent signs (as seen on TV) of last few days and
> > generalize that they are evil or different or
> whatever,
> > compared to us, then I think Vir Sanghvi is right. But
> I am
> > sure such a simple generalization could even be made
> by a
> > 6th grade school student brought up on a diet of TV
> news.
> > 
> > If Pakistanis are not the same people as us (Indians)
> > simply because over last 60 years they have grown to
> become
> > something else (something of an evil), haven't we
> > Indians grown to become something else? What makes
> > Mr.Sanghvi think that among the twins separated at
> birth one
> > has gone in the right direction while the other one
> has been
> > spoiled.
> > 
> > But talking about the same-ness, at one level even the
> > residents of Amritsar and Lahore have been very
> different
> > (even before 1947), and at another level, the people
> of
> > Kabul and Kandhamal are the same, even today. Am I not
> > right?
> > 
> > Yousuf
> > 
> > 
> > --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Wali Arifi
> > <waliarifi3 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > From: Wali Arifi <waliarifi3 at gmail.com>
> > > Subject: [Reader-list] The Epitaph of a Mind: Vir
> > Sanghvi
> > > To: "Sarai"
> <reader-list at sarai.net>
> > > Date: Thursday, March 26, 2009, 11:07 AM
> > > Vir Sanghvi, Hindustan Times
> > > March 07, 2009
> > > First Published: 21:47 IST(7/3/2009)
> > > 
> > > The same people? Surely not
> > > 
> > > Few things annoy me as much as the claim often
> > advanced by
> > > well-meaning but woolly- headed (and usually
> Punjabi)
> > > liberals to the
> > > effect that when it comes to India and Pakistan,
> > > "We’re all the same
> > > people, yaar."
> > > 
> > > This may have been true once upon a time. Before
> 1947,
> > > Pakistan was
> > > part of undivided India and you could claim that
> > Punjabis
> > > from West
> > > Punjab (what is now Pakistan) were as Indian as,
> say,
> > > Tamils from
> > > Madras.
> > > 
> > > But time has a way of moving on. And while the
> gap
> > between
> > > our
> > > Punjabis (from east Punjab which is now the only
> > Punjab
> > > left in India)
> > > and our Tamils may actually have narrowed, thanks
> to
> > > improved
> > > communications, shared popular culture and
> greater
> > physical
> > > mobility,
> > > the gap between Indians and Pakistanis has now
> widened
> > to
> > > the extent
> > > that we are no longer the same people in any
> > significant
> > > sense.
> > > 
> > > This was brought home to me most clearly by two
> major
> > > events over the
> > > last few weeks.
> > > 
> > > The first of these was the attack on the Sri
> Lankan
> > cricket
> > > team on
> > > the streets of Lahore. In their defence,
> Pakistanis
> > said
> > > that they
> > > were powerless to act against the terrorists
> because
> > > religious
> > > fanaticism was growing. Each day more misguided
> > youngsters
> > > joined
> > > jihadi outfits and the law and order situation
> > worsened.
> > > 
> > > Further, they added, things had got so bad that
> in the
> > > tribal areas
> > > the government of Pakistan had agreed to suspend
> the
> > rule
> > > of law under
> > > pressure from the Taliban and had conceded that
> sharia
> > law
> > > would reign
> > > instead. Interestingly, while most civilised
> liberals
> > > should have been
> > > appalled by this surrender to the forces of
> extremism,
> > many
> > > Pakistanis
> > > defended this concession.
> > > 
> > > Imran Khan (Keble College, Oxford, 1973-76) even
> > declared
> > > that sharia
> > > law would be better because justice would be
> dispensed
> > more
> > > swiftly!
> > > (I know this is politically incorrect but the
> Loin of
> > the
> > > Punjab’s
> > > defence of sharia law reminded me of the famous
> > Private Eye
> > > cover when
> > > his marriage to Jemima Goldsmith was announced.
> The
> > Eye
> > > carried a
> > > picture of Khan speaking to Jemima’s father.
> “Can
> > I
> > > have your
> > > daughter’s hand?” Imran was supposedly asking
> > James
> > > Goldsmith. “Why?
> > > Has she been caught shoplifting?” Goldsmith
> replied.
> > So
> > > much for
> > > sharia law.)
> > > 
> > > The second contrasting event was one that took
> place
> > in Los
> > > Angeles
> > > but which was perhaps celebrated more in India
> than in
> > any
> > > other
> > > country in the world. Three Indians won Oscars:
> A.R.
> > > Rahman, Resul
> > > Pookutty and Gulzar.
> > > 
> > > Their victory set off a frenzy of rejoicing. We
> were
> > proud
> > > of our
> > > countrymen. We were pleased that India’s
> > entertainment
> > > industry and
> > > its veterans had been recognised at an
> international
> > > platform. And all
> > > three men became even bigger heroes than they
> already
> > were.
> > > 
> > > But here’s the thing: Not one of them is a
> Hindu.
> > > 
> > > Can you imagine such a thing happening in
> Pakistan?
> > Can you
> > > even
> > > conceive of a situation where the whole country
> would
> > > celebrate the
> > > victory of three members of two religious
> minorities?
> > For
> > > that matter,
> > > can you even imagine a situation where people
> from
> > > religious
> > > minorities would have got to the top of their
> fields
> > and
> > > were,
> > > therefore, in the running for international
> awards?
> > > 
> > > On the one hand, you have Pakistan imposing
> sharia
> > law,
> > > doing deals
> > > with the Taliban, teaching hatred in madrasas,
> > declaring
> > > jihad on the
> > > world and trying to kill innocent Sri Lankan
> > cricketers. On
> > > the other,
> > > you have the triumph of Indian secularism.
> > > 
> > > The same people?
> > > 
> > > Surely not.
> > > 
> > > We are defined by our nationality. They choose to
> > define
> > > themselves by
> > > their religion.
> > > 
> > > But it gets even more complicated. As you
> probably
> > know,
> > > Rahman was
> > > born Dilip Kumar. He converted to Islam when he
> was
> > 21. His
> > > religious
> > > preferences made no difference to his prospects.
> Even
> > now,
> > > his music
> > > cuts across all religious boundaries. He’s as
> much
> > at
> > > home with Sufi
> > > music as he is with
> > > bhajans. Nor does he have any problem with saying
> > ‘Vande
> > > Mataram’.
> > > 
> > > Now, think of a similar situation in Pakistan.
> Can you
> > > conceive of a
> > > Pakistani composer who converted to Hinduism at
> the
> > age of
> > > 21 and
> > > still went on to become a national hero? Under
> sharia
> > law,
> > > they’d
> > > probably have to execute him.
> > > 
> > > Resul Pookutty’s is an even more interesting
> case.
> > Until
> > > you realise
> > > that Malayalis tend to put an ‘e’ where the
> rest
> > of us
> > > would put an
> > > ‘a,’ (Ravi becomes Revi and sometimes the
> Gulf
> > becomes
> > > the Gelf), you
> > > cannot work out that his name derives from
> Rasool, a
> > fairly
> > > obviously
> > > Islamic name.
> > > 
> > > But here’s the point: even when you point out
> to
> > people
> > > that Pookutty
> > > is in fact a Muslim, they don’t really care. It
> > makes no
> > > difference to
> > > them. He’s an authentic Indian hero, his
> religion is
> > > irrelevant.
> > > 
> > > Can you imagine Pakistan being indifferent to a
> > man’s
> > > religion? Can
> > > you believe that Pakistanis would not know that
> one of
> > > their Oscar
> > > winners came from a religious minority? And would
> any
> > > Pakistani have
> > > dared bridge the religious divide in the manner
> Resul
> > did
> > > by referring
> > > to the primeval power of Om in his acceptance
> speech?
> > > 
> > > The same people?
> > > 
> > > Surely not.
> > > 
> > > Most interesting of all is the case of Gulzar who
> many
> > > Indians believe
> > > is a Muslim. He is not. He is a Sikh. And his
> real
> > name is
> > > Sampooran
> > > Singh Kalra.
> > > 
> > > So why does he have a Muslim name?
> > > 
> > > It’s a good story and he told it on my TV show
> some
> > years
> > > ago. He was
> > > born in West Pakistan and came over the border
> during
> > the
> > > bloody days
> > > of Partition. He had seen so much hatred and
> religious
> > > violence on
> > > both sides, he said, that he was determined never
> to
> > lose
> > > himself to
> > > that kind of blind religious prejudice and
> fanaticism.
> > > 
> > > Rather than blame Muslims for the violence
> inflicted
> > on his
> > > community
> > > — after all, Hindus and Sikhs behaved with
> equal
> > ferocity
> > > — he adopted
> > > a Muslim pen name to remind himself that his
> identity
> > was
> > > beyond
> > > religion. He still writes in Urdu and considers
> it
> > > irrelevant whether
> > > a person is a Sikh, a Muslim or a Hindu.
> > > 
> > > Let’s forget about political correctness and
> come
> > clean:
> > > can you see
> > > such a thing happening in Pakistan? Can you
> actually
> > > conceive of a
> > > famous Pakistani Muslim who adopts a Hindu or
> Sikh
> > name out
> > > of choice
> > > to demonstrate the irrelevance of religion?
> > > 
> > > My point, exactly.
> > > 
> > > What all those misguided liberals who keep
> blathering
> > on
> > > about us
> > > being the same people forget is that in the
> 60-odd
> > years
> > > since
> > > Independence, our two nations have traversed very
> > different
> > > paths.
> > > 
> > > Pakistan was founded on the basis of Islam. It
> still
> > > defines itself in
> > > terms of Islam. And over the next decade as it
> > destroys
> > > itself, it
> > > will be because of Islamic extremism.
> > > 
> > > India was founded on the basis that religion had
> no
> > role in
> > > determining citizenship or nationhood. An Indian
> can
> > belong
> > > to any
> > > religion in the world and face no discrimination
> in
> > his
> > > rights as a
> > > citizen.
> > > 
> > > It is nobody’s case that India is a perfect
> society
> > or
> > > that Muslims
> > > face no discrimination. But only a fool would
> deny
> > that in
> > > the last
> > > six decades, we have travelled a long way towards
> > religious
> > > equality.
> > > In the early days of independent India, a Yusuf
> Khan
> > had to
> > > call
> > > himself Dilip Kumar for fear of attracting
> religious
> > > prejudice.
> > > 
> > > In today’s India, a Dilip Kumar can change his
> name
> > to
> > > A.R. Rahman and
> > > nobody really gives a damn either way.
> > > 
> > > So think back to the events of the last few
> weeks. To
> > the
> > > murderous
> > > attack on innocent Sri Lankan cricketers by
> jihadi
> > fanatics
> > > in a
> > > society that is being buried by Islamic
> extremism. And
> > to
> > > the triumphs
> > > of Indian secularism.
> > > 
> > > Same people?
> > > 
> > > Don’t make me laugh.
> > > _________________________________________
> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and
> the
> > city.
> > > Critiques & Collaborations
> > > To subscribe: send an email to
> > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in
> the
> > subject
> > > header.
> > > To unsubscribe:
> > >
> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list 
> > > List archive:
> > >
> >
> &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> > 
> > 
> >       
> > _________________________________________
> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the
> city.
> > Critiques & Collaborations
> > To subscribe: send an email to
> > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the
> subject
> > header.
> > To unsubscribe:
> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list 
> > List archive:
> >
> &lt;https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>
> > 
> > 
> >       Add more friends to your messenger and
> enjoy! Go to
> > http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>       From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over
> India. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/citygroups/

More information about the reader-list mailing list