[Reader-list] Reg: Mail on nationalism and Gujarat's secular development (And my experiences)

Mon Jun 14 21:50:33 IST 2010

But when I go and make a visit to Bihar and say something anti-Nitish based
on what I see and hear there from the people themselves, that will still be
a perception and not a reality.  :P

On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 9:47 PM, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi <
rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com> wrote:

> Rakesh, it is for you to seek, see, and understand, those who seek will
> obtain, no spoon feeding the intellect.! make a Project visit to the place
> and have a look, :-).
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Rakesh Iyer <rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Great. Thanks for that. Now I wish to know what is reality?
>>
>> Rakesh
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 6:56 PM, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi <
>> rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>  Rakesh, i appreciate your stubborn opinion, but do not agree with it,
>>> for the simple reason, grass root realities are again perceptions.!
>>> rajen.
>>>
>>>   On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 6:39 PM, Rakesh Iyer <rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> To my knowledge, Mumtaz Ali is a member of the Legislative Council.
>>>>
>>>> As for India telling me, I didn't say that. What I said about Nitish is
>>>> verbatim what the Biharis say about him. And as for BJP, do find me out some
>>>> candidate the BJP had asked to stand from any constituency in Karnataka or
>>>> Madhya Pradesh (for an election where people elect, not Councils and Rajya
>>>> Sabha where people like Vijay Mallya can also enter).
>>>>
>>>> And as for Mumtaz Ali, he is a nominated member of the Legislative
>>>> Council by the Governor of Karnataka, not an elected representative of
>>>> people. This for a party which used to chide Manmohan Singh for his
>>>> inability to contest any election.
>>>>
>>>> And yes, the BJP does have a Muslim MP in Shahnawaz Husain. He won
>>>> because Kishanganj has a high percentage of Muslim population, and BJP had
>>>> no choice but to put up a Muslim candidate, as otherwise caste would have
>>>> taken shape and no caste has high dominance.
>>>>
>>>> I am not saying the BJP will not put up a Muslim candidate at all. After
>>>> all, India's demography is such that it will force BJP to put up Muslim
>>>> candidates, even if they don't like it, so also India's polity. But then, if
>>>> possible, they would certainly not like to do it, based on their ideology.
>>>> And Gujarat and Karnataka assembly elections are prime examples.
>>>>
>>>> And we do know the strength of these Muslims in the party and also their
>>>> position when pogroms like 2002 Gujarat occur.
>>>>
>>>> Rakesh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 6:19 PM, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi <
>>>> rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Did they tell you this from all over India, Rakesh ji.? By the
>>>>> way,Prof. Mumtaj Ali Khan, is minister of wakf and muslim welfare, in
>>>>> karnataka, and is a muslim. At the district level many are from other faiths
>>>>> and please be my guest as i have been studying this aspect of societal
>>>>> change in karnataka for the last fifteen years as many of other castes and
>>>>> faiths gravitate towards power and the party in power. !
>>>>> regards,
>>>>> rajen
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Rakesh Iyer <rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The fact is that Nitish is the face on which the BJP today can
>>>>>> contest. The BJP can't contest on its own in Bihar even if it wanted to
>>>>>> simply because they lack OBC leaders with the possible exception of Sushil
>>>>>> Kumar Modi, the deputy CM of Bihar, who lacks charishma of the kind Nitish
>>>>>> has. People have respect for Nitish Kumar for what he has done.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for faiths, I don't disagree with you, but then the fact is that
>>>>>> BJP only gave ticket to Muslims in Bihar because there it had to prove it
>>>>>> was 'secular'. In Gujarat and Karnataka, it didn't give ticket to a single
>>>>>> Muslim for any assembly or Lok Sabha poll, so also in Madhya Pradesh. People
>>>>>> know its' real intentions, at least the Muslims do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rakesh
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Rajendra Bhat Uppinangadi <
>>>>>> rajen786uppinangady at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rakesh,
>>>>>>> your post made very interesting reading material for me, thanks. But
>>>>>>> the fact is Nitish by himself without the support of BJP was a non starter
>>>>>>> when Lalu had mis managed the state for decades, and again, it is BJP which
>>>>>>> lacks the savvy sense of being aloof and not trying to break the shackles of
>>>>>>> getting labelled as communal, the propaganda against it being powerful,
>>>>>>> leaders not active enough to manage this negative perception pressed for
>>>>>>> years in the minds of population. Though there are many more MPs from
>>>>>>> different faiths including Islam in BJP, the efforts to make a conscious
>>>>>>> efforts to be with ALL the citizens irrespective of their faith in
>>>>>>> governance is needed to more urgently correct the perception, which does not
>>>>>>> come by tokenism of advertisements of secularism, but by practice at the
>>>>>>> grass root level.
>>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>> rajen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 12:54 PM, Rakesh Iyer <
>>>>>>> rakesh.rnbdj at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Hi all
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> First of all, I am excited to be back posting on Sarai after a long
>>>>>>>> time. I
>>>>>>>> had been to Araria in Bihar for 20 days with regard to an internship
>>>>>>>> doing
>>>>>>>> social audit of MNREGA (Mahatma Gandhi National Rural Employment
>>>>>>>> Guarantee
>>>>>>>> Act) in two panchayats of Araria district. I enjoyed the experience,
>>>>>>>> and was
>>>>>>>> also sad and pained to see the levels of corruption in the scheme.
>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>> social audits also consisted of public hearings where the problems
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> compalints of citizens were brought to the fore among the district
>>>>>>>> officials
>>>>>>>> who have started acting against the complaints made against
>>>>>>>> officials. I
>>>>>>>> also realized the importance of MNREGA particularly in the rural
>>>>>>>> backgrounds
>>>>>>>> of this diverse nation of ours where this scheme could reverse not
>>>>>>>> only the
>>>>>>>> social and economic but also the political dynamics of our nation,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> certainly wish it succeeds.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also, I would like to say that my perception of Nitish Kumar has
>>>>>>>> certainly
>>>>>>>> changed in some extent. Earlier I thought that the rural populace
>>>>>>>> was not
>>>>>>>> interested and also the Muslims, but at least at the ground level,
>>>>>>>> though
>>>>>>>> with a limited experience of groundwork, I did find Muslims actually
>>>>>>>> liking
>>>>>>>> Nitish Kumar's rule (the places I went to had up to 90% of Muslims),
>>>>>>>> though
>>>>>>>> they certainly didn't approve of the BJP. Ironically, the poor
>>>>>>>> however found
>>>>>>>> that the bureaucracy was more corrupt under Nitish's rule as
>>>>>>>> compared to the
>>>>>>>> Lalu rule, which gave them a sense of dignity. Also, the fact that
>>>>>>>> Nitish is
>>>>>>>> completely hamstrung in the implementation of land reforms and
>>>>>>>> higher
>>>>>>>> education reform reports shows that he is still held as a puppet by
>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>> MLA's and the BJP.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Coming back to nationalism and the mail Bipin bhai sent, I would say
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> nationalism is something not only me but the great Rabindranath
>>>>>>>> Tagore was
>>>>>>>> himself against. Nationalism is something which has destroyed Israel
>>>>>>>> itself.
>>>>>>>> Tagore was against Gandhi on many ideas, and one of them was
>>>>>>>> nationalism,
>>>>>>>> even though Gandhi's own idea of nationalism was something Ashish
>>>>>>>> Nandy
>>>>>>>> described as 'leading to internationalism' and hardly involved
>>>>>>>> violence of
>>>>>>>> any kind. The reason was something we should all understand.
>>>>>>>> Nationalism
>>>>>>>> thrives on the feeling that one should place the nation-state before
>>>>>>>> oneself. This is a highly dubious stand simply because a
>>>>>>>> nation-state is not
>>>>>>>> what Bipin bhai may think it to be.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A nation-state, in an ideal case should mean a collection of people
>>>>>>>> who have
>>>>>>>> decided to live together, devising a commonly understood way of
>>>>>>>> administration with minimum differences amongst them while having
>>>>>>>> decided
>>>>>>>> so. It is not the case. A nation-state simply means an authority
>>>>>>>> which has
>>>>>>>> the legitimate right to indulging in violence upon its' own citizens
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> others who act against the state. The problem with this is that the
>>>>>>>> threat
>>>>>>>> lies that the nation-state or those who control it can simply do as
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> wish and attack those who stop them in their steps, terming it as
>>>>>>>> anti-state, and others are simply expected to follow it. Also, the
>>>>>>>> violence
>>>>>>>> of the state is justified and supposed to be taken as the verdict
>>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>>> ever questioning it. Nationalism has dangers of its own. Moreover,
>>>>>>>> violence
>>>>>>>> can't be justified in the name of protecting a state because the
>>>>>>>> state may
>>>>>>>> be oppressive, and the best option may be to throw off the state.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Therefore, to state that nationalism is justified and would lead to
>>>>>>>> development is travesty. Development should be for the people and
>>>>>>>> not for
>>>>>>>> those who control the nation-state and other sections who benefit
>>>>>>>> from it
>>>>>>>> where the major section of the population has to only suffer and not
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> the ability to change the situation. Naxalism is one result of what
>>>>>>>> happens
>>>>>>>> when this is the case. What will help the country is not
>>>>>>>> nationalism, but
>>>>>>>> instead a pro-people outlook which will guide the development
>>>>>>>> process and
>>>>>>>> help bring peace and prosperity to the citizens. Hence, let us stop
>>>>>>>> bragging
>>>>>>>> about nationalism here itself.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Am fine sharing things with you in person (on my gmail id) on my
>>>>>>>> trip to
>>>>>>>> Araria, as this may not be the appropriate forum to do so.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And happy to be back. Probably one of the few reasons I enjoy my
>>>>>>>> dreary life
>>>>>>>> in IIT, is Sarai.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Rakesh
>>>>>>>> _________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Rajen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Rajen.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Rajen.
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Rajen.
>
>