[Reader-list] Fwd: Fw: Amnesty International Public Statement on Rising Deaths in Kashmir

Sun Sep 26 19:52:56 IST 2010

I believe that Article 370 is useless and must be remove from all the
states. This law restricts industrial development and ultimately
unemployment remains there. Earlier I have made lots of communication on
this topic, if you have not read I will send it to you separately on your
request.

Allotted money does not utilize fully for the respected state is common
problem for all the states as lots of money goes in between and not
applicable to Kashmir only.

Paramilitary force lower cadre who obeys the order only might not knowing
about protesters, but top brass who is in charge of forces are fully aware
with the problem.

I have full right to put my view and as a Indian I am alerting common people
of Kashmiri, who are Indian citizens also,  that do not come in the trap of
separatist. 

Normally when the border states facing its own sovereignty threats from
across the border, laws like AFSPA come into effect. Kashmir is altogether
different issue to continue AFSPA, while other 2 states this law is
prevailing for different reason and whether to remove or not can be decided
jointly by state/central  government. 

Thanks

Bipin Trivedi

From: anupam chakravartty [mailto:c.anupam at gmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2010 12:55 PM
To: SUNDARA BABU; sarai list; bipin
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Fw: Amnesty International Public Statement
on Rising Deaths in Kashmir

Dear Bipin,

1. Can you prove that on going demonstrations and protests has anything to
do with Article 370 or as a consequence of tax payer's money being diverted
to protect the so called special privileges of Kashmiris? If article 370
guarantees special privileges to the Kashmiris, why is it that there is
discontentment among the people? 

2. Can you also prove that heavy spending on Kashmir is exclusively for the
Kashmiris, who are now protesting? 

3. Article 370 is applicable to two other states as well. Would you know
terms under which these two other states have been brought under this
article?

4. Is a paramilitary armed soldier equipped enough to understand the angst
of a protesting Kashmiri? I do not think so. It has never been the case. 

5. For any conflict to be called internal or external, it needs two
conflicting sides to agree to the nature of conflict. Do both the sides say
whether this conflict is internal or external? Who are you to comment on the
nature of this conflict? 

6. Manipur and Assam (for ages now), similar to Kashmir has been asking for
the removal of AFSPA. These two states do not enjoy any priviledges under
Article 370. How do you explain the dissent against AFSPA in these two
states?

I would appreciate if you could mull over these questions. I also appreciate
that you are directly addressing my doubts and writings, which earlier was
absent despite my efforts to reply to every other thing that you posted
about Gujarat. Hoping to hear from you again Bipin. 

with regards, 
Anupam

On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 12:26 AM, SUNDARA BABU <babuubab at gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Friends,
There is no evidence so far that Amnesty International is Anti-India or
Pro-Pakistani. Whether we like or not, with all its limitations, AMNESTY
INTERNATIONAL is THE world's biggest and greatest human rights organisation
so far. It hardly matters whether we agree to this or not. But its
statements seriously influences the rogue government forces and rebel
elements involving in terror acts, across the world alike, in reducing
violence. Moreover, HUMAN RIGHTS IS EVERYBOBY's BUSINESS. So please
highlight clearly what you think is a lie in the Amnesty Statement on J&K
and help them to correct the flaws. Every responsible INDIAN CITIZEN should
lend hands to strenghten such organisations to have a vibrant democratic
INDIA as a nation with justice and peace.
regards,
Sundara Babu

On 25 September 2010 23:25, Bipin Trivedi <aliens at dataone.in> wrote:

> Anupam,
>
> Kashmir is having special status with article 370 and enjoying more rights
> than rest of the India. So, your doubts for their rights are irrelevant. I
> am worrying for my country and so for Kashmir also, what's wrong in it.
You
> or many others like you may not believe that Kashmir is part of India, but
> fact is that Kashmir is still part of India. India is spending heavily on
> Kashmir, almost highest or second highest per capita spending among all
the
> states. As a tax payer, we have full right to look in this matter since
> they
> are enjoying aids more than they need. Kashmir is not generating revenue
> for
> their own deeds like not allowing industries, ongoing disturbance does not
> allowing to develop tourism and other developments, so unemployment bound
> to
> be there and they themselves are responsible for that.
>
> Geelani is key conspirator for ongoing disturbance in Kashmir all these
> years and responsible for Kashmir remain backwards. India spends heavily
on
> Kashmir for his negative acts so naturally all the tax payers have full
> right to say for his acts. He may not believe him as Indian but enjoying
> all
> the Indian rights, aids and so he is answerable. But, even after so many
> years he remains the same and so one should not hesitate to tell him
> foolish. I am not creating any disturbance and so there is no question to
> tell for him against me. For my writing if he reads he has full right to
> say
> whatever he wants to. Whatever bad things in India do not describe her as
> rogue state. That's internal matter of India and India does not interfere
> in
> other country, not creating any kind of disturbance, terrorism unlike Pak.
> That is why Pak is rogue state. No of reasons can be given for Pakistan
> being rogue state.
>
> Thanks
> Bipin Trivedi
>
>
> From: anupam chakravartty [mailto:c.anupam at gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, September 20, 2010 2:04 AM
> To: Bipin Trivedi; sarai list
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Fw: Amnesty International Public Statement
> on Rising Deaths in Kashmir
>
> Bipin,
>
> I would not comment on Amnesty Intl position on the Iraq war. I appreciate
> that you understand the value of freedom and specific denomination given
to
> this idea by the developing societies: that there is an underlying bitter
> truth about freedom. I think this bitter truth is that freedom comes with
> responsibility. Why are you "worried" about Kashmiris? If are you worried
> that there are thousands of people, who have died during this conflict.
Yes
> that is worrisome. Then the resolution of the Kashmir dispute ought to be
> in
> the way Kashmiris want it to be because my freedom here is not at stake,
so
> to speak of. Nor are yours. Nobody has told you that if you do not worry
> about Kashmiris, they are going to bomb your establishment. So far, most
of
> the acts of terrorism targeting India have always been a list of demands
> which have been reported to have originated from the militant sections of
> Kashmiris were mostly about their freedom or the recognition of their
> rights. From seeking the release of the political prisoners to the
protests
> or followed by attacks, seeking custody of a body murdered by a bunch of
> security men. It has always been about their freedom, which has been
> encroached by group of men. The political prisoners might be criminals or
> murderers. I may not be in a position to dispute those charges. However,
> their motivations do not change, even if we kill them. They are political
> prisoners demanding sovereign state, threatening the Indian establishment
> on
> every occasion when their rights are violated. However those who are
> demanding that AFSPA should be withdrawn, I presume are also saying that
> the
> ones who have left for the less trodden path could come home. So that the
> elders could remind the younger ones to understand their responsibilities
> along with this struggle to restore their rights. When there are doubts
> about what rights do they have, what responsibility or bitter truths can
we
> discuss about Bipin on this list? Can the presence of gun wielding men
> ensure such an atmosphere, where a discussion about rights vis-a-vis
> responsibilities could take place? These questions have been raised not
> only
> in case of Kashmir but also Manipur.
>
> You are describing Geelani as foolish. But then Geelani has not said
> anything about you or the position you hold. He is not even worried about
> the other parts of India and expressed a satisfaction or dissatisfaction
> over issue not related with Kashmir. And this debate, would you not
> consider
> that if there exists an entity such as rogue Pakistan and very conversely,
> in all its manifestations, there exists a rogue India. We might run out of
> examples, if we consider the local Panchayat polls where rogue India
> thrives
> in its particularity. To sum up, the territoriality of India cannot rest
on
> the idea that this territoriality or this integrity could be imposed if
the
> need arises. It is too weak an idea, will always be an impediment on
> building a strong and critical foundation of this country. I am not in a
> position to offer resolution for Kashmir or Manipur but a step forward
> would
> be withdrawal of troops from the civilian areas. These are views are
> however
> very personal and not meant to demean certain sacrifices of Indian troops
> or
> rescue work that was carried out during calamities.
>
> Thanks Anupam
>
> On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 10:43 PM, Bipin Trivedi <aliens at dataone.in> wrote:
> Anupam,
>
> Of course all the Indians must worry for their territory and preserve
their
> boundary intact, what is wrong in it. We should not ready to get away our
> territory for the act of few foolish people like Geelani and  rogue
> Pakistan.
>
> But I am not making such stand for only territoriality of India. If that
is
> the case than I would have not gone with that assumption even after
> achieving freedom... I am equally worry for the Kashmiri people reflects
in
> the statement "But after achieving freedom if you can achieve, people of
> Kashmir realizes that how the bitter truth is". I am trying to alert the
> people that do not come in the trap of separatists just showing the
> lollipop
> of freedom without any optimistic future plan. After freedom your
situation
> will be even worse. Please understand this. That's all.
>
> I am talking about Amnesty dual attitude about US and others. US was
> planning for Iraq war before actual war by giving reasons that they
possess
> chemical weapon and having terror infrastructure. Everyone knows that this
> was wrong reason and actual agenda is to capture their oil field. At that
> time why Amnesty keep mum. By their voice and if averted war than lot of
> life would have been saved.
>
> Thanks
> Bipin Trivedi
>
>
> From: anupam chakravartty [mailto:c.anupam at gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2010 12:48 PM
> To: Bipin Trivedi; sarai list
> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Fwd: Fw: Amnesty International Public Statement
> on Rising Deaths in Kashmir
>
> Bipin Trivedi
>
> Amnesty International may be flawed in its report, could you explain your
> comments on the collective destinies of lakhs of people ("But after
> achieving freedom if you can achieve, people of Kashmir realizes that how
> the bitter truth is. In that case after few years of azadi, I am sure
> Kashmiri people will start reverse agitation and urge India to free from
> separatist. They will agitate to join fully with Indian continent and if
it
> happens, what will separatists do? I am sure it will going to happen if
> azadi is given to Kashmiri.")? It is very clear that you care for the
> territoriality of Indian state rather than its people and their
> aspirations.
> And a question to you, in the present times, having listened to all those
> who are asking for freedom, those who say we will 'safeguard' your
freedom,
> those whose voices have never been heard but it is only now that after so
> many years that have had to come out on the streets to negotiate their own
> freedoms, what should be agenda of the state trying to negotiate such
> conflicts? should the preservation of territoriality of the state be on
the
> agenda or consider the aspirations?
>
> is territoriality an important aspect of the present times? no please do
> not
> give me a lecture on security and safety of the state and its people,
> things
> about Islamic fundamentalism. we have had our share of prison breaks, of
> utterly dissatisfied people (living very much under the state's security
> perimeter) killing their neighbours in the most cold blooded manner. the
> reasons have been the same: he has a bigger car than mine. i think the
idea
> of territoriality of the state arises from such a position.
>
>
>
> Moreover, why this comparison: "Where was Amnesty International when US
> attacked Iraq for their own interest of capturing Oil fields?" are you
> talking about kashmir or iraq? if you can make such comparisons, where are
> you when half of your nuclear facilities are going to be monitored by the
> Americans, post the deal? is it not a question of what you call "internal
> matter"? My idea here was not start another debate on nuclear deal but a
> message to people, including commentators here to not try and hijack the
> issue of Kashmir by citing various comparisons with situations that are
> remotely connected to the issue of Kashmir. As a witness to the debate
> about
> Kashmir, the resolution lies in understanding the uniqueness of this
issue,
> not demonstrating your knowledge about similar issues. In terms of
content,
> it may sound very exotic, shows well informed you are but logically
flawed.
> I am convinced that territoriality of an already sovereign state is not
the
> correct means to analyse the aspirations of a certain group of persons.
> Even
> if we say that they might have been misled, when you are in the side of
the
> state, you cannot afford to be in a position to assert your own
sovereignty
> over these people who do not feel the same way. You will be referred to as
> a
> tyrant, or a bully. I am sorry but I am also an Indian, and I cannot see
> the
> foundations on which this state was formed being violated by a few
tyrants,
> who legitimately or illegitimately call themselves as rulers. These are
> very
> personal observations from what I have read or seen or discussed in last
> one
> and a half months with some of my friends, who held similar positions like
> yours Bipin.
>
> Thanks
> Anupam
> On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 11:27 PM, Bipin Trivedi <aliens at dataone.in> wrote:
> Where was Amnesty International when US attacked Iraq for their own
> interest
> of capturing Oil fields? Don't interfere in Indian internal matter and
> don't
> advise us anything. We will handle it. How to handle, whether to remove
> AFSPA or not, we will decide. So Amnesty, mind your own business and do
not
> interfere.
>
> When Protesters try to disturbed the peace, what will the forces do? They
> are obeying their duty to restore the peace and in that whoever comes in
> between has to pay the penalty. When no human rights applicable to
> protesters, terrorists than why to armed forces?
>
> Today news was aired that NC and PDP wants yet more independent power in
> Kashmir. Is it the solution and the things will solve? Not at all. Crooked
> separatist like Geelani, Miwaiz, Yasin never accept anything than total
> freedom. Since they are staying in India physically but by heart they are
> Pakistani and Pakistan never let live them other than Kashmir freedom.
>
> What have separatists plan after getting freedom. Kashmir is totally
> depending on tourism and have they thought that after Kashmir becoming
> separate state, tourism will effect heavily. Kashmir as a separate state
> will bankrupt financially which you could not understand since at present
> India spent heavily for Kashmir. So after freedom, if they think that Pak
> will finance than they are mistaken, since Pak is already bagging from US,
> how can they help? So, like Pak you have to become bagger from US.
>
> For this movement, you must have taken granted the support of Jammu people
> than you are mistaken. Since, I am sure Jammu people will definitely
prefer
> to stay with India. So, first you have to agree for the division of state
> and then go ahead with your freedom movement restricted to valley only.
>
> But after achieving freedom if you can achieve, people of Kashmir realizes
> that how the bitter truth is. In that case after few years of azadi, I am
> sure Kashmiri people will start reverse agitation and urge India to free
> from separatist. They will agitate to join fully with Indian continent and
> if it happens, what will separatists do? I am sure it will going to happen
> if azadi is given to Kashmiri.
>
> Thanks
> Bipin Trivedi
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: reader-list-bounces at sarai.net [mailto:reader-list-bounces at sarai.net]
> On Behalf Of Nagraj Adve
> Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2010 8:26 PM
> To: Sarai; Free Binayak Sen; ecological-democracy at lists.riseup.net
> Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Fw: Amnesty International Public Statement on
> Rising Deaths in Kashmir
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: gautam navlakha <gnavlakha at gmail.com>
> Date: 18 September 2010 20:24
> Subject: [pudr] Fwd: Fw: Amnesty International Public Statement on Rising
> Deaths in Kashmir
> To: activist <activist at pudr.org>, asish gupta <asishroop at gmail.com>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Khurram Parvez <khurramparvez at yahoo.com>
> Date: Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 3:53 PM
> Subject: Fw: Amnesty International Public Statement on Rising Deaths in
> Kashmir
> To: kparvez at kashmirprocess.org
>
>
>
>
> --- On *Fri, 9/17/10, iteam at amnesty.org <iteam at amnesty.org>* wrote:
>
>
> From: iteam at amnesty.org <iteam at amnesty.org>
> Subject: Amnesty International Public Statement on Rising Deaths in
Kashmir
> To: iteam at amnesty.org
> Date: Friday, September 17, 2010, 10:31 AM
>
> Dear friends
>
> Please find below a public statement about the on-going violence in
Kashmir
>
> Best regards,
> South Asia Team
> Amnesty International
> International Secretariat
> 1 Easton Street
> London WC1X ODW
> United Kingdom
> Tel +44 (0) 20 7413 5500
> Fax +44 (0) 20 7956 1157
>
> http://www.amnesty.org
> http://www.asiapacific.amnesty.org
>
> *AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL* *
> PUBLIC STATEMENT*
>
> AI: Index: ASA20/027/2010
>
> 17 September 2010
>
> *
> India: Urgent need for Government to act as death toll rises in Kashmir*
>
> With an increasing death toll in protests in Kashmir, Amnesty
International
> calls on the Indian authorities to take urgent steps to ensure respect for
> the right to life and to investigate past killings of demonstrators by
> police.
>
> With two more protestors shot dead today, Amnesty International urges the
> Indian government to immediately instruct the security forces not to use
> firearms against demonstrators,   Security forces should use the minimum
> force necessary to defend themselves or others against an imminent threat
> of
> death or serious injury. They should not employ intentional lethal use of
> firearms except where such use is strictly unavoidable in order to protect
> life.
>
> Ninety-six people have been killed since June when protests broke out in
> Jammu and Kashmir after the killings of three young men, reportedly by the
> security forces, in March.  The vast majority of these killings have been
> at
> the hands of police and paramilitary forces.
>
> An inquiry ordered by the authorities into 11 of the deaths by shooting in
> July has failed to make headway.  Amnesty International renews its call to
> the government to initiate an independent, impartial and thorough
> investigation into all the killings.  Members of the security forces
> responsible for excessive use of force in demonstrations should be brought
> to justice.
>
> In the last week alone, at least 23 people were killed and 80 others
> injured
> in shootings by the state police and the Central Reserve Police Force
> (CRPF)
> paramilitary personnel. Protestors defied curfew regulations, held
> demonstrations and often clashed with the security personnel.
>
> Protests in several places turned violent as demonstrators hurled stones
at
> the security forces in the last week. Reports about threats to burn the
> Quran in the United States increased tensions.  Demonstrators attacked two
> Christian schools and a hospital, burning one of the schools.
>
> At the same time human rights activists in Srinagar told Amnesty
> International that on a number of occasions the security forces shot
> protestors who were throwing stones at them.
>
> A number of towns in the Kashmir valley including Srinagar have been under
> 24 hour curfew for the last five days.
>
> Information about these events has been restricted as a result of strict
> enforcement of the curfew regulations. Journalists have informed Amnesty
> International that, despite possessing curfew passes issued by the
> authorities, they have been prevented by the police and the paramilitary
> personnel from leaving their homes. With journalists unable to report on
> the
> situation, a number of regional television stations and newspapers have
> suspended their work.
>
> Any restrictions on the rights to freedom of movement or freedom of
> expression imposed for the protection of public order should only be such
> as
> are necessary and proportionate for that purpose and should be consistent
> with the state's other human rights obligations. In view of the key role
of
> journalists in facilitating exercise the right to freedom of expression,
> which includes the right to receive information.  Amnesty International
> calls on the Indian authorities to ensure that journalists can obtain
> curfew
> passes and are not harassed or otherwise obstructed while carrying out
> their
> professional functions of reporting and imparting information on issues of
> public concern.
>
> More public protests have been announced for 21 September by the All Party
> Hurriyat Conference (APHC), one of the largest political formations in
> Jammu
> and Kashmir.   This underlines the urgency for  the Indian authorities to
> instruct the security forces not to use lethal force when dealing with
> demonstrations.
>
> The demonstrations began in late May over the reported extrajudicial
> execution of three young men by the Army at Machil in Baramulla district.
> Protests increased after 17-year old Tufail Mattoo was killed by security
> forces in Srinagar during a demonstration on 11 June. They have
intensified
> during repeated cycles of protests and further killings of demonstrators
by
> security forces.
>
> The demonstrators have raised various concerns about the lack of
> accountability of the security forces; the withdrawal of Armed Forces
> (Jammu
> and Kashmir) Special Powers Act (AFSPA) 1958; the removal of Army camps -
> along with an underlying demand of independence for Kashmir.
>
> The AFSPA, which gives special powers of immunity to the security forces,
> has been in force in parts of Jammu and Kashmir since 1990. The Central
> Government is currently debating the withdrawal of the AFSPA from a few of
> its districts.
>
> One of the key demands of the state authorities and protesting
> organizations, namely the withdrawal of the AFSPA, does not appear to
> figure
> in the agenda of the all-party team from Delhi scheduled to visit Srinagar
> on 20 September.
>
> Under the AFSPA, soldiers are protected from any legal proceedings unless
> specifically sanctioned by the Central Government. This rarely happens in
> practice, allowing armed forces personnel to violate human rights with
> impunity.
>
> Ends/
>
>
> --
>
> Working to protect human rights worldwide
>
> DISCLAIMER
>
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--
SUNDARA BABU NAGAPPAN

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