[Urbanstudy] Re:Nangla Machi

[Sanjay Srivastava]

Regarding the mail from Shveta: no these are not the only emotions one
encounters anywhere. A very specific context was being addressed in the
messages by Diya, Jeebesh, and Sebi.and specific issues were raised. My
responses relate to that context and those issues. Regards,
Sanjay

Quoting urbanstudygroup-request at sarai.net:

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>    1. Re: Nangla Machi (Sanjay Srivastava)
>    2. Re: Re: Nangla Machi (shveta at sarai.net)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat,  8 Apr 2006 18:30:28 +0530
> From: Sanjay Srivastava <sanjays at deakin.edu.au>
> Subject: [Urbanstudy] Re: Nangla Machi
> To: urbanstudygroup at sarai.net
> Message-ID: <1144501228.4437b3eca28da at mail.deakin.edu.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Dear Seby,
>
> Perhaps I should have been more specific when responding to Jeebesh: the 'we'
> I
> had in mind refers to relatively privileged groups, and our ('our'!)
> ambiguous
> relationship to the state (and the nation, for that matter, viz.
> nationalism).
> As an partial example, let's think of history of the Delhi Development
> Authority (DDA). It has provided reasonably priced housing for a vast number
> of
> middle-class people (academics, human rights activists etc. included!)through
> --
> from the late 1950s onwards -- becoming a land speculator on their behalf and
> locking out the urban poor from housing choices. 'Unauthorised colonies' owe
> much to DDA's policies of profit making through land speculation. But while
> many of us are concerned about what happens at Nangla, the link between
> accepting benefits of the state and the impoverishment of others needs also
> to
> be recognised.
>
> In a second sense, 'we are the state' meant to suggest that we shouldn't
> assume
> that the state has a fixed essence, other wise what would be the point of
> thinking that things can change? Why ask questions at all? So, in this sense,
> the state is us, and our different capacities to influence it (despite
> various
> learned tracts on its 'withering away', and the emeregence of 'post-national'
> societies', it doesn't really look as if the state is about to pack its bag
> and
> go away somewhere).
>
> Finally, I meant by the term 'the state is us' that we all carry an
> unexamined
> ability to think like it. Perhaps not all of 'us', but many. And this would
> include those -- once marginalised -- who may once have suffered at the hands
> of the state but also have the capacity to inflict the same violence upon
> others. This is not to blame the once-poor for becoming 'oppressor',rather,
> it
> is about the circumstances through which people (the 'we') become the state.
>
> In any case, I wasn't trying to suggest that those who have experienced state
> violence are the one's who have caused violence to themselves. If it came out
> that way, it's an error in expression.
>
> WRT 'civil society' and the state: I don't think there is just one 'civil
> society' within any particualr nation-state, but, rather, several formations
> of
> civil societies. Some of these may be more state-like than others. So, there
> are
> many Resident Welfare Associations in Delhi that cover very prosperous areas
> and
> who represent their actions as those of 'civil society' against the state.
> Among
> other things. they demand that the state remove 'anauthorised' settlements
> from
> their localities through utilising whatever force it can utilise. Their
> arguments are usually borrowed from the state itself about a clean
> environment,
> 'criminality', etc. In such cases, there is little distinction between the
> state
> and civil society. Very often, the latter term is a very slippery one and can
> often be used to distinguish 'decent, upstanding' citizens from those who are
> seen to be not so. In another context, not so long ago, women may not have
> regarded as being part of civil-society, and sometimes still aren't. All this
> to say that perhaps the term 'civil-society' - which, strictly speaking, has
> a
> European intellectual heritage -- is itself worth thinking about. And that,
> while in some cases there may be a difference between 'civil society' and the
> state, sometimes there may not be. It differs from case to case.
> Best wishes,
> Sanjay
>
>
> Quoting urbanstudygroup-request at sarai.net:
>
> > Send Urbanstudygroup mailing list submissions to
> > 	urbanstudygroup at sarai.net
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > 	https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/urbanstudygroup
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > 	urbanstudygroup-request at sarai.net
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > 	urbanstudygroup-owner at sarai.net
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Urbanstudygroup digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >    1. Re: Nangla Machi (Sanjay Srivastava)
> >    2. correction (Ramya Swayamprakash)
> >    3. RE: Re: Nangla Machi (sebastian Rodrigues)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sat,  8 Apr 2006 10:33:16 +0530
> > From: Sanjay Srivastava <sanjays at deakin.edu.au>
> > Subject: [Urbanstudy] Re: Nangla Machi
> > To: urbanstudygroup at sarai.net
> > Message-ID: <1144472596.44374414d4ed1 at mail.deakin.edu.au>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
> >
> > This is a response to Diya and Jibesh.
> >
> > Dear Diya,
> > You ask why NM is an exception in terms of people not getting land (though
> I
> > hope this proves to be wrong). Frankly, it isn't clear why, though perhaps
> it
> > might be that the High Court and other authorities feel that Yamuna-related
> > land  is so 'valuable' that whoever has 'encroached' upon it, deserves no
> > mercy. The river itself has become an semi-religious entity superior to the
> > humans rather than the both being a part of the urban cultural and
> political
> > economy. Of course, there is also the mass of influential 'public' opinion
> > that
> > gathers around a mystical environmentalism within which the urban poor, at
> > the
> > same time that they service the well-off are also hived off from their
> lives
> > in
> > favour of a 'clean environment'.
> >
> > Secondly, the land at NM is owned by a number of different agencies, or, at
> > least, more than one will be held financially liable if any resettlement
> plan
> > does come through. These have carried out their own surveys to see how many
> > have settled on their patch of land and hence what their liability might
> be.
> > Quite clearly, they would be quite happy if no resettlement plan was ever
> to
> > come through. While on the hand the concretness of the state is manifest in
> > ideas of statutory bodies and surveys (which will lead to specific
> results),
> > just as often the multiplicity of state procedures  and authorities can be
> > the
> > black-hole where human aspirations disappear. The irony is that those who
> > stand
> > to be most discriminated by the state often have the most (and are forced
> to
> > have the most) intense relationship with it.
> >
> > There are also rumours (and very much rumours) about the role of local
> > politicians in all this.
> >
> > I don't know if any of the above is explanation for might happen to those
> > still
> > there are Nangla, but perhaps others have different points of view.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Sanjay
> >
> > Dear Jibesh,
> >
> > The question of 'distance' is an important one, and not one that can be
> > easily
> > set apart by itself. Of course, it is true that in many senses I am,
> indeed,
> > distanced from the lives of those in Nangla. Perhaps similar to those
> others
> > like me who have not had to see their houses and shops being demolished. I
> > certainly don't wish to (and didn't in my earlier message) wish to express
> my
> > own sense of 'anguish' and 'helplessness' as this can too easily position
> an
> > outsider as the one as the suffering one. There is enough of
> anthropological
> > and sociological empathy with the suffering subject around, and after a
> > point,
> > it becomes self-serving. To suffer philosophically doesn't hurt nearly as
> > much
> > as to suffer historically (or, 'actually').
> >
> > However, the question remains, how to, write from a position of relative
> > privilege about those who may not be thus positioned. This, surely has been
> > the
> >  situation in which virtually all Indian social scientists find themselves,
> > whether articulated or not. And, speaking for myself, I have certainly
> learnt
> > from the writings of those who have not themselves been the subjects of
> > communal violence, the Union Carbide disaster, gender violence,
> > Emergency-related violence etc.
> >
> > As for how 'administrative and state violence is lived', it should be clear
> > that
> > my account is always going to be partial (and to some extent 'fictional',
> ie.
> > constructed out of fragments). But perhaps I share that with many others. I
> > certainly have no sense that what I might have to say is going to be a
> > 'better'
> > one than some other. It definitely can not reproduce embodied suffering.
> > That's
> > the proper limitation of all such work, one that can be undone by someone
> > else
> > working in a different context.
> >
> > As should be clear from above, I am very wary of stating that I am ever
> going
> > to
> > be able to 'properly' represent violence experienced by others; that would
> > only
> > trivialise what has actually happened at Nangla. However, given these
> > limitations, what can one do but work out some secon-hand strategy ( at
> least
> > for myself) of entanglement? An example, as inadequate as it may be. For
> the
> > past 3-4 months I've been involved in the case of an elderly man, a
> resident
> > of
> > Nangla, who one afternoon, simply disappeared. He appears to have been very
> > active in mediating between the Nangla people and, among others, the
> police.
> > And, and as far the Nangla people are concerned, he was quite fearless in
> his
> > dealings with the the latter. Many seem to think that he was kidnapped by
> the
> > police, and, since November 2005 nothing has been heard of him. To cut a
> long
> > story short, since then, a group of Nangla people and myself have met and
> > visited police stations, Patiala House (courthouse), police officers (ACPs,
> > SIs, ASIs, constables), lawyers etc. Eventually, this led to the filing of
> a
> > Right to Information (RTI) petitition, after further visits to the RTI
> > office,
> > the police, etc etc. Now that Nangla is to be scattered, all this will
> > probably
> > come to nothing, since residents may not be able to organise over the
> issue,
> > living in different parts of the city, or having to leave it altogether.
> > Unfortunately, I can only narrate the complex violence of the state,
> through
> > trying to focus on its different sites (so what is happening at Nangla is
> > also,
> > I feel, linked to urban 'movements' such as the Delhi govt. sponsored
> > 'Bhagidari'). So, my account (of the state, violence, whatever), is really
> an
> > attempt at distancing only in the most literal sense of the term: how does
> > one
> > understand urban reality as a consequence of a number of related contexts,
> > since actual violence is always born out of a wider and connected social
> > context. And finally, I think that the state is not 'out there', we are the
> > state. And if we have sense of 'state violence', we also have some sense of
> > our
> > own those proclivities,attitudes, and desires. That's one of the ways I
> hope
> > to
> > write about 'state violence', as different from the embodied violence
> > experienced by those at Nangla. The two stories, as I am sure you
> recognise,
> > can't be the same, though hopefully they will not be seen as mutually
> > exclusive, or, antagonistic.
> >
> > Best Wishes,
> > Sanjay
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 12:15:23 +0530
> > From: "Ramya Swayamprakash" <ramya.swayamprakash at gmail.com>
> > Subject: [Urbanstudy] correction
> > To: urbanstudygroup at sarai.net
> > Message-ID:
> > 	<43d896ab0604072345t6c6ee387x4f343318cf1f4c2c at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Dear all,
> > I fogot to add that the question and comments that follow each category are
> > my questions. It sorta my way of mind mapping. I forgot to mention that in
> > the post.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > ~Ramya~
> > Text and voice 91-9869513903
> > Blog: http://quixoticgnat.blogspot.com
> > ---------------------------------
> > Life...is like a grapefruit. It's orange and squishy, and has a few pips in
> > it, and some folks have half a one for breakfast.
> > Douglas Adams
> > ---------------------------------
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> >
>
http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/urbanstudygroup/attachments/20060408/f2902f06/attachment.html
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 15:23:04 +0530
> > From: "sebastian Rodrigues" <sebydesiolim at hotmail.com>
> > Subject: RE: [Urbanstudy] Re: Nangla Machi
> > To: sanjays at deakin.edu.au, urbanstudygroup at sarai.net
> > Message-ID: <BAY116-F20AA3CB9F5A47CFCE80B78DECE0 at phx.gbl>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
> >
> > Dear Sanjay,
> >
> > In response to Jeebesh you say the following towards the end "And finally,
> I
> > think that the state is not 'out there', we are the state."  This 'we'
> > includes who? the middle class? The Academicians who are not the survivors
> > of disasaters such as you point out "communal violence, the Union Carbide
> > disaster, gender violence, Emergency-related violence etc."? Do you believe
> > in any boundaries between the State and Civil Society? If yes then where
> did
> > your "we" fit in?.
> >
> > I must admit while I question all this to you I am one of the survivors
> from
> > one of the disasters related to mining where my home did rot in mining dust
> > and I was not the State. Or was I? If yes then I acted violently against
> > myself?
> >
> > Seby.
> >
> >
> > >From: Sanjay Srivastava <sanjays at deakin.edu.au>
> > >To: urbanstudygroup at sarai.net
> > >Subject: [Urbanstudy] Re: Nangla Machi
> > >Date: Sat,  8 Apr 2006 10:33:16 +0530
> > >
> > >This is a response to Diya and Jibesh.
> > >
> > >Dear Diya,
> > >You ask why NM is an exception in terms of people not getting land (though
> > >I
> > >hope this proves to be wrong). Frankly, it isn't clear why, though perhaps
> > >it
> > >might be that the High Court and other authorities feel that
> Yamuna-related
> > >land  is so 'valuable' that whoever has 'encroached' upon it, deserves no
> > >mercy. The river itself has become an semi-religious entity superior to
> the
> > >humans rather than the both being a part of the urban cultural and
> > >political
> > >economy. Of course, there is also the mass of influential 'public' opinion
> > >that
> > >gathers around a mystical environmentalism within which the urban poor, at
> > >the
> > >same time that they service the well-off are also hived off from their
> > >lives in
> > >favour of a 'clean environment'.
> > >
> > >Secondly, the land at NM is owned by a number of different agencies, or,
> at
> > >least, more than one will be held financially liable if any resettlement
> > >plan
> > >does come through. These have carried out their own surveys to see how
> many
> > >have settled on their patch of land and hence what their liability might
> > >be.
> > >Quite clearly, they would be quite happy if no resettlement plan was ever
> > >to
> > >come through. While on the hand the concretness of the state is manifest
> in
> > >ideas of statutory bodies and surveys (which will lead to specific
> > >results),
> > >just as often the multiplicity of state procedures  and authorities can be
> > >the
> > >black-hole where human aspirations disappear. The irony is that those who
> > >stand
> > >to be most discriminated by the state often have the most (and are forced
> > >to
> > >have the most) intense relationship with it.
> > >
> > >There are also rumours (and very much rumours) about the role of local
> > >politicians in all this.
> > >
> > >I don't know if any of the above is explanation for might happen to those
> > >still
> > >there are Nangla, but perhaps others have different points of view.
> > >
> > >Regards,
> > >Sanjay
> > >
> > >Dear Jibesh,
> > >
> > >The question of 'distance' is an important one, and not one that can be
> > >easily
> > >set apart by itself. Of course, it is true that in many senses I am,
> > >indeed,
> > >distanced from the lives of those in Nangla. Perhaps similar to those
> > >others
> > >like me who have not had to see their houses and shops being demolished. I
> > >certainly don't wish to (and didn't in my earlier message) wish to express
> > >my
> > >own sense of 'anguish' and 'helplessness' as this can too easily position
> > >an
> > >outsider as the one as the suffering one. There is enough of
> > >anthropological
> > >and sociological empathy with the suffering subject around, and after a
> > >point,
> > >it becomes self-serving. To suffer philosophically doesn't hurt nearly as
> > >much
> > >as to suffer historically (or, 'actually').
> > >
> > >However, the question remains, how to, write from a position of relative
> > >privilege about those who may not be thus positioned. This, surely has
> been
> > >the
> > >  situation in which virtually all Indian social scientists find
> > >themselves,
> > >whether articulated or not. And, speaking for myself, I have certainly
> > >learnt
> > >from the writings of those who have not themselves been the subjects of
> > >communal violence, the Union Carbide disaster, gender violence,
> > >Emergency-related violence etc.
> > >
> > >As for how 'administrative and state violence is lived', it should be
> clear
> > >that
> > >my account is always going to be partial (and to some extent 'fictional',
> > >ie.
> > >constructed out of fragments). But perhaps I share that with many others.
> I
> > >certainly have no sense that what I might have to say is going to be a
> > >'better'
> > >one than some other. It definitely can not reproduce embodied suffering.
> > >That's
> > >the proper limitation of all such work, one that can be undone by someone
> > >else
> > >working in a different context.
> > >
> > >As should be clear from above, I am very wary of stating that I am ever
> > >going to
> > >be able to 'properly' represent violence experienced by others; that would
> > >only
> > >trivialise what has actually happened at Nangla. However, given these
> > >limitations, what can one do but work out some secon-hand strategy ( at
> > >least
> > >for myself) of entanglement? An example, as inadequate as it may be. For
> > >the
> > >past 3-4 months I've been involved in the case of an elderly man, a
> > >resident of
> > >Nangla, who one afternoon, simply disappeared. He appears to have been
> very
> > >active in mediating between the Nangla people and, among others, the
> > >police.
> > >And, and as far the Nangla people are concerned, he was quite fearless in
> > >his
> > >dealings with the the latter. Many seem to think that he was kidnapped by
> > >the
> > >police, and, since November 2005 nothing has been heard of him. To cut a
> > >long
> > >story short, since then, a group of Nangla people and myself have met and
> > >visited police stations, Patiala House (courthouse), police officers
> (ACPs,
> > >SIs, ASIs, constables), lawyers etc. Eventually, this led to the filing of
> > >a
> > >Right to Information (RTI) petitition, after further visits to the RTI
> > >office,
> > >the police, etc etc. Now that Nangla is to be scattered, all this will
> > >probably
> > >come to nothing, since residents may not be able to organise over the
> > >issue,
> > >living in different parts of the city, or having to leave it altogether.
> > >Unfortunately, I can only narrate the complex violence of the state,
> > >through
> > >trying to focus on its different sites (so what is happening at Nangla is
> > >also,
> > >I feel, linked to urban 'movements' such as the Delhi govt. sponsored
> > >'Bhagidari'). So, my account (of the state, violence, whatever), is really
> > >an
> > >attempt at distancing only in the most literal sense of the term: how does
> > >one
> > >understand urban reality as a consequence of a number of related contexts,
> > >since actual violence is always born out of a wider and connected social
> > >context. And finally, I think that the state is not 'out there', we are
> the
> > >state. And if we have sense of 'state violence', we also have some sense
> of
> > >our
> > >own those proclivities,attitudes, and desires. That's one of the ways I
> > >hope to
> > >write about 'state violence', as different from the embodied violence
> > >experienced by those at Nangla. The two stories, as I am sure you
> > >recognise,
> > >can't be the same, though hopefully they will not be seen as mutually
> > >exclusive, or, antagonistic.
> > >
> > >Best Wishes,
> > >Sanjay
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Urbanstudygroup mailing list
> > >Urban Study Group: Reading the South Asian City
> > >
> > >To subscribe or browse the Urban Study Group archives, please visit
> > >https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/urbanstudygroup
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Urbanstudygroup mailing list
> > Urbanstudygroup at sarai.net
> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/urbanstudygroup
> >
> >
> > End of Urbanstudygroup Digest, Vol 26, Issue 12
> > ***********************************************
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 16:02:34 +0200
> From: <shveta at sarai.net>
> Subject: Re: [Urbanstudy] Re: Nangla Machi
> To: Sanjay Srivastava <sanjays at deakin.edu.au>
> Cc: urbanstudygroup at sarai.net
> Message-ID: <321faeba215547caadf90d1dbd170364 at sarai.net>
>
> Dear Sanjay,
>
> I am intrigued by your mail. It is as if you are encountering lives, which
> can only be understood as suffering subjects. Can all lives be understood
> through this trope?
>
> How is that the case? Is it a mode of engagement? Or perhaps the only mode
> of engagement possible with the "other" (other to the anthropologist)? Are
> there no other terms possible by which two people encounter each other, see
> each other?
>
> Are "anguish" and "helplessness" all that you encounter in the persons that
> you meet in Nangla? Is that the only speech act you are witness to? Are
> these the only terms accessible to you through which you can share with us
> a relationship? Surely, you see more than "suffering subjects" in people
> you have met and have months of relationship with, leading into the present.
>
> Or is it that you expect this is what the list demands! Surely not!!
>
> looking forward,
> best
> shveta
>
>
> > >  Dear Jibesh,
> > >
> > >  The question of 'distance' is an important one, and not one that
> > >  can be easily
> > >  set apart by itself. Of course, it is true that in many senses I
> > >  am, indeed, distanced from the lives of those in Nangla. Perhaps
> > >  similar to those others like me who have not had to see their
> > >  houses and shops being demolished. I certainly don't wish to (and
> > >  didn't in my earlier message) wish to express my own sense of
> > >  'anguish' and 'helplessness' as this can too easily position an
> > outsider as the one as the suffering one. There is enough of
> > >  anthropological and sociological empathy with the suffering
> > >  subject around, and after a point,
> > >  it becomes self-serving. To suffer philosophically doesn't hurt
> > >  nearly as much
> > >  as to suffer historically (or, 'actually').
> > >
> > >  However, the question remains, how to, write from a position of
> > >  relative privilege about those who may not be thus positioned.
> > >  This, surely has been the
> > >   situation in which virtually all Indian social scientists find
> > >  themselves, whether articulated or not. And, speaking for myself,
> > >  I have certainly learnt from the writings of those who have not
> > >  themselves been the subjects of communal violence, the Union
> > >  Carbide disaster, gender violence, Emergency-related violence etc.
> > >
> > >  As for how 'administrative and state violence is lived', it should
> > >  be clear that
> > >  my account is always going to be partial (and to some extent
> > >  'fictional', ie. constructed out of fragments). But perhaps I
> > >  share that with many others. I certainly have no sense that what I
> > >  might have to say is going to be a 'better'
> > >  one than some other. It definitely can not reproduce embodied
> > >  suffering. That's
> > >  the proper limitation of all such work, one that can be undone by
> > >  someone else
> > >  working in a different context.
> > >
> > >  As should be clear from above, I am very wary of stating that I am
> > >  ever going to
> > >  be able to 'properly' represent violence experienced by others;
> > >  that would only
> > >  trivialise what has actually happened at Nangla. However, given
> > >  these limitations, what can one do but work out some secon-hand
> > >  strategy ( at least for myself) of entanglement? An example, as
> > >  inadequate as it may be. For the past 3-4 months I've been
> > >  involved in the case of an elderly man, a resident of
> > >  Nangla, who one afternoon, simply disappeared. He appears to have
> > >  been very active in mediating between the Nangla people and, among
> > >  others, the police. And, and as far the Nangla people are
> > >  concerned, he was quite fearless in his dealings with the the
> > >  latter. Many seem to think that he was kidnapped by the police,
> > >  and, since November 2005 nothing has been heard of him. To cut a
> > long story short, since then, a group of Nangla people and myself have
> > >  met and visited police stations, Patiala House (courthouse),
> > >  police officers (ACPs, SIs, ASIs, constables), lawyers etc.
> > >  Eventually, this led to the filing of a Right to Information (RTI)
> > >  petitition, after further visits to the RTI office,
> > >  the police, etc etc. Now that Nangla is to be scattered, all this
> > >  will probably
> > >  come to nothing, since residents may not be able to organise over
> > >  the issue, living in different parts of the city, or having to
> > >  leave it altogether. Unfortunately, I can only narrate the complex
> > >  violence of the state, through trying to focus on its different
> > >  sites (so what is happening at Nangla is also,
> > >  I feel, linked to urban 'movements' such as the Delhi govt.
> > >  sponsored 'Bhagidari'). So, my account (of the state, violence,
> > >  whatever), is really an attempt at distancing only in the most
> > >  literal sense of the term: how does one
> > >  understand urban reality as a consequence of a number of related
> > >  contexts, since actual violence is always born out of a wider and
> > >  connected social context. And finally, I think that the state is
> > >  not 'out there', we are the state. And if we have sense of 'state
> > >  violence', we also have some sense of our
> > >  own those proclivities,attitudes, and desires. That's one of the
> > >  ways I hope to
> > >  write about 'state violence', as different from the embodied
> > >  violence experienced by those at Nangla. The two stories, as I am
> > >  sure you recognise, can't be the same, though hopefully they will
> > >  not be seen as mutually exclusive, or, antagonistic.
> > >
> > >  Best Wishes,
> > >  Sanjay
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  ------------------------------
> > >
> > >  Message: 2
> > >  Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 12:15:23 +0530
> > >  From: "Ramya Swayamprakash&quot; <ramya.swayamprakash at gmail.com>
> > >  Subject: [Urbanstudy] correction
> > >  To: urbanstudygroup at sarai.net
> > >  Message-ID:
> > >      <43d896ab0604072345t6c6ee387x4f343318cf1f4c2c at mail.gmail.com>
> > >  Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> > >
> > >  Dear all,
> > >  I fogot to add that the question and comments that follow each
> > >  category are my questions. It sorta my way of mind mapping. I
> > >  forgot to mention that in the post.
> > >
> > >  Cheers,
> > >  ~Ramya~
> > >  Text and voice 91-9869513903
> > >  Blog: http://quixoticgnat.blogspot.com
> > >  ---------------------------------
> > >  Life...is like a grapefruit. It's orange and squishy, and has a
> > >  few pips in it, and some folks have half a one for breakfast.
> > >  Douglas Adams
> > >  ---------------------------------
> > >  -------------- next part --------------
> > >  An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > >  URL:
> > >
> > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/urbanstudygroup/attachments/20060408/f
> > 2902f06/attachment.html
> > >
> > >  ------------------------------
> > >
> > >  Message: 3
> > >  Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 15:23:04 +0530
> > >  From: "sebastian Rodrigues" <sebydesiolim at hotmail.com>
> > >  Subject: RE: [Urbanstudy] Re: Nangla Machi
> > >  To: sanjays at deakin.edu.au, urbanstudygroup at sarai.net
> > >  Message-ID: <BAY116-F20AA3CB9F5A47CFCE80B78DECE0 at phx.gbl>
> > >  Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
> > >
> > >  Dear Sanjay,
> > >
> > >  In response to Jeebesh you say the following towards the end "And
> > >  finally, I think that the state is not 'out there', we are the
> > >  state."  This 'we' includes who? the middle class? The
> > >  Academicians who are not the survivors of disasaters such as you
> > >  point out "communal violence, the Union Carbide disaster, gender
> > >  violence, Emergency-related violence etc."? Do you believe in any
> > >  boundaries between the State and Civil Society? If yes then where
> > > did your "we" fit in?.
> > >  I must admit while I question all this to you I am one of the
> > >  survivors from one of the disasters related to mining where my
> > >  home did rot in mining dust and I was not the State. Or was I? If
> > >  yes then I acted violently against myself?
> > >
> > >  Seby.
> > >
> > >
> > > > From: Sanjay Srivastava <sanjays at deakin.edu.au>
> > > > To: urbanstudygroup at sarai.net
> > > > Subject: [Urbanstudy] Re: Nangla Machi
> > > > Date: Sat,  8 Apr 2006 10:33:16 +0530
> > > >
> > > > This is a response to Diya and Jibesh.
> > > >
> > > > Dear Diya,
> > > > You ask why NM is an exception in terms of people not getting
> > > > land (though I
> > > > hope this proves to be wrong). Frankly, it isn't clear why,
> > > > though perhaps it
> > > > might be that the High Court and other authorities feel that
> > > > Yamuna-related land  is so 'valuable' that whoever has
> > > > 'encroached' upon it, deserves no mercy. The river itself has
> > > > become an semi-religious entity superior to the humans rather
> > > > than the both being a part of the urban cultural and political
> > > > economy. Of course, there is also the mass of influential
> > > > 'public' opinion that
> > > > gathers around a mystical environmentalism within which the urban
> > > > poor, at the
> > > > same time that they service the well-off are also hived off from
> > > > their lives in
> > > > favour of a 'clean environment'.
> > > >
> > > > Secondly, the land at NM is owned by a number of different
> > > > agencies, or, at least, more than one will be held financially
> > > > liable if any resettlement plan
> > > > does come through. These have carried out their own surveys to
> > > > see how many have settled on their patch of land and hence what
> > > > their liability might be.
> > > > Quite clearly, they would be quite happy if no resettlement plan
> > > > was ever to
> > > > come through. While on the hand the concretness of the state is
> > > > manifest in ideas of statutory bodies and surveys (which will
> > > > lead to specific results),
> > > > just as often the multiplicity of state procedures  and
> > > > authorities can be the
> > > > black-hole where human aspirations disappear. The irony is that
> > > > those who stand
> > > > to be most discriminated by the state often have the most (and
> > > > are forced to
> > > > have the most) intense relationship with it.
> > > >
> > > > There are also rumours (and very much rumours) about the role of
> > > > local politicians in all this.
> > > >
> > > > I don't know if any of the above is explanation for might happen
> > > > to those still
> > > > there are Nangla, but perhaps others have different points of
> > > > view.
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Sanjay
> > > >
> > > > Dear Jibesh,
> > > >
> > > > The question of 'distance' is an important one, and not one that
> > > > can be easily
> > > > set apart by itself. Of course, it is true that in many senses I
> > > > am, indeed,
> > > > distanced from the lives of those in Nangla. Perhaps similar to
> > > > those others
> > > > like me who have not had to see their houses and shops being
> > > > demolished. I certainly don't wish to (and didn't in my earlier
> > > > message) wish to express my
> > > > own sense of 'anguish' and 'helplessness' as this can too easily
> > > > position an
> > > > outsider as the one as the suffering one. There is enough of
> > > > anthropological
> > > > and sociological empathy with the suffering subject around, and
> > > > after a point,
> > > > it becomes self-serving. To suffer philosophically doesn't hurt
> > > > nearly as much
> > > > as to suffer historically (or, 'actually').
> > > >
> > > > However, the question remains, how to, write from a position of
> > > > relative privilege about those who may not be thus positioned.
> > > > This, surely has been the
> > > >   situation in which virtually all Indian social scientists find
> > > > themselves,
> > > > whether articulated or not. And, speaking for myself, I have
> > > > certainly learnt
> > > > from the writings of those who have not themselves been the
> > > > subjects of communal violence, the Union Carbide disaster, gender
> > > > violence, Emergency-related violence etc.
> > > >
> > > > As for how 'administrative and state violence is lived', it
> > > > should be clear that
> > > > my account is always going to be partial (and to some extent
> > > > 'fictional', ie.
> > > > constructed out of fragments). But perhaps I share that with many
> > > > others. I certainly have no sense that what I might have to say
> > > > is going to be a 'better'
> > > > one than some other. It definitely can not reproduce embodied
> > > > suffering. That's
> > > > the proper limitation of all such work, one that can be undone by
> > > > someone else
> > > > working in a different context.
> > > >
> > > > As should be clear from above, I am very wary of stating that I
> > > > am ever going to
> > > > be able to 'properly' represent violence experienced by others;
> > > > that would only
> > > > trivialise what has actually happened at Nangla. However, given
> > > > these limitations, what can one do but work out some secon-hand
> > > > strategy ( at least
> > > > for myself) of entanglement? An example, as inadequate as it may
> > > > be. For the
> > > > past 3-4 months I've been involved in the case of an elderly man,
> > > > a resident of
> > > > Nangla, who one afternoon, simply disappeared. He appears to have
> > > > been very active in mediating between the Nangla people and,
> > > > among others, the police.
> > > > And, and as far the Nangla people are concerned, he was quite
> > > > fearless in his
> > > > dealings with the the latter. Many seem to think that he was
> > > > kidnapped by the
> > > > police, and, since November 2005 nothing has been heard of him.
> > > > To cut a long
> > > > story short, since then, a group of Nangla people and myself have
> > > > met and visited police stations, Patiala House (courthouse),
> > > > police officers (ACPs, SIs, ASIs, constables), lawyers etc.
> > > > Eventually, this led to the filing of a
> > > > Right to Information (RTI) petitition, after further visits to
> > > > the RTI office,
> > > > the police, etc etc. Now that Nangla is to be scattered, all this
> > > > will probably
> > > > come to nothing, since residents may not be able to organise over
> > > > the issue,
> > > > living in different parts of the city, or having to leave it
> > > > altogether. Unfortunately, I can only narrate the complex
> > > > violence of the state, through
> > > > trying to focus on its different sites (so what is happening at
> > > > Nangla is also,
> > > > I feel, linked to urban 'movements' such as the Delhi govt.
> > > > sponsored 'Bhagidari'). So, my account (of the state, violence,
> > > > whatever), is really an
> > > > attempt at distancing only in the most literal sense of the term:
> > > > how does one
> > > > understand urban reality as a consequence of a number of related
> > > > contexts, since actual violence is always born out of a wider and
> > > > connected social context. And finally, I think that the state is
> > > > not 'out there', we are the state. And if we have sense of 'state
> > > > violence', we also have some sense of our
> > > > own those proclivities,attitudes, and desires. That's one of the
> > > > ways I hope to
> > > > write about 'state violence', as different from the embodied
> > > > violence experienced by those at Nangla. The two stories, as I am
> > > > sure you recognise,
> > > > can't be the same, though hopefully they will not be seen as
> > > > mutually exclusive, or, antagonistic.
> > > >
> > > > Best Wishes,
> > > > Sanjay
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Urbanstudygroup mailing list
> > > > Urban Study Group: Reading the South Asian City
> > > >
> > > > To subscribe or browse the Urban Study Group archives, please
> > > > visit https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/urbanstudygroup
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  ------------------------------
> > >
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> > >  https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/urbanstudygroup
> > >
> > >
> > >  End of Urbanstudygroup Digest, Vol 26, Issue 12
> > >  ***********************************************
> > >
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> >
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>
>
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