[cr-india] fee question

Randolph Wang rywang at cs.princeton.edu
Sat Jun 30 01:41:19 PDT 2007 

Hello, I was told to email to this address to ask a simple question:

What're the gov-required fees involved in setting up a "community
radio station" in India?

In addition to the one-time Rs25000 "bank guarantee," I was told by
one source that we need to pay a Rs20000 PER MONTH charge just to buy
the spectrum from the government.

Is this true?

We want to set up a number of small 2-mile radius stations to beam
educational content to school children in poor villages.

Thanks,
Randy






---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Randolph Wang <rywang at cs.princeton.edu>
Date: Jun 30, 2007 2:01 PM
Subject: Re: (dsh-discuss) (dsh-hubs) Re: radio rules: bad news
To: Vickram Crishna <vvcrishna at gmail.com>
Cc: DSH discussion <studyhall-discuss at lists.cs.princeton.edu>,
"freeman at pobox.com" <freeman at pobox.com>


At http://mib.nic.in/CRS/FAQ.htm, it says:


- ---quote---

5.         What are the fees?

    * There is no other fee charged by M/o I&B except that the
applicant may be required to furnish a Bank Guarantee of Rs.25,000/-
at the time of signing the Grant of Permission Agreement (GOPA).

    * However, one will have to pay requisite fee to WPC Wing of
Ministry of Communication & IT for frequency allocation, Standing
Committee on Frequency Allocation (SACFA) clearance and Wireless
Operating License (WOL) etc. The details can be obtained from their
website: www.wpc.dot.govt.in

- ---unquote---


In typical desi bureaucracy fashion, the link www.wpc.dot.govt.in is
broken :)  I tried several variations of this (like by removing the
word "dot") and they all failed :)





On 6/30/07, Randolph Wang <rywang at cs.princeton.edu> wrote:
> On the gov list of places that have applied for a license, there's
> "dept of journalism and mass communication, university of lucknow,
> lucknow."
>
> How far is the cow univ from us?  Do we get signals from them?  If
> yes, perhaps you (Khomeini) can pull some strings at the cow univ to
> let us on their airwave for some time to experiment with stuff while
> other stuff is being sorted out...
>
> (They are on the list of applicants---I don't know whether they have
> been approved.)
>
>
> On 6/30/07, Randolph Wang <rywang at cs.princeton.edu> wrote:
> > When I told him (Sridhar) that I don't want 15km and I just want a 1w
> > 2-mile station, (in fact, a whole bunch of them networked together),
> > he said, "yeah, for that kind of thing, it should be free, but the law
> > does not provide for anything like that in India today, and I don't
> > think it's happening any time soon to address this."
> >
> > Selling air (literally!) in the middle of nowhere with nothing around
> > by the gov is ridiculous, if it's true!!   Why don't they sell sun
> > light while they are at it?!
> >
> > BTW, here's a one-pager of what we want to do:
> >
> > http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=df64d9n5_41dtx49p
> >
> > It was meant to be a quickie to be sent to some local gov cheese to
> > beg for permission.  Our project home page is at:
> > http://dsh.cs.washington.edu
> >
> >
> >
> > On 6/30/07, Randolph Wang <rywang at cs.princeton.edu> wrote:
> > > Ok, will look more carefully at the site.
> > >
> > > How do I "join" cr-india at sarai.net?  Just mail to it?
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > >
> > >
> > > On 6/30/07, Vickram Crishna <vvcrishna at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > No way. The spectrum is 'free', for community radio. Unless the
> > > > bureaucrats have sneaked in a way of charging for something the
> > > > Cabinet has specifically cleared.
> > > >
> > > > Why not join the community radio forum at cr-india at sarai.net?
> > > >
> > > > On 6/30/07, Randolph Wang <rywang at cs.princeton.edu> wrote:
> > > > > Thanks Freeman and Vickram, if this is true, it certainly changes things!! :)
> > > > >
> > > > > But are you sure about that?  I asked Sridhar a couple times about the
> > > > > fees to be sure.
> > > > >
> > > > > There *IS* a one-time "bank guarantee" of Rs25K.  This turns out not
> > > > > to be a problem.  The gov actually does not take the money away from
> > > > > us.  It's a penalty that the gov can impose on us if there's
> > > > > rule-breakage on our part (such as sitting on the spectrum doing
> > > > > nothing).  But the money sits in our bank, and our bank issues a
> > > > > "guarantee" to the gov that says if these guys don't pay you, we (the
> > > > > bank) will pay you, in case of law-breaking.
> > > > >
> > > > > But he said the *PER MONTH* cost of Rs20K is for "buying the spectrum
> > > > > from the government."
> > > > >
> > > > > Are you sure he was wrong?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks! :)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 6/30/07, freeman murray <fcmurray at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > Hi Vickram,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks, knowing that its 20k / start-up vs. 20k / mo helps alot !!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And your site has lots of good information. I'll pass it along
> > > > > > and will let you know how it develops.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > cheers,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Freeman
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 6/29/07, Vickram Crishna <vvcrishna at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > In most of what he says, he is entirely correct. I presume the Sridhar
> > > > > > > he refers to is Dr Sreedher Ramamurthy, who has been one of the early
> > > > > > > 'pioneers' in running community radio stations the way the government
> > > > > > > wants, so he knows exactly how difficult it is. But he is totally
> > > > > > > wrong about the 20k/month, he misunderstood that. There is a one-time
> > > > > > > deposit, no additional fees. Everything is explained at the link url
> > > > > > > he quotes.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The hybrid network he is talking about is exactly what we promote -
> > > > > > > small radius stations linked by wifi bridges. Dirt cheap, very
> > > > > > > interesting advances in the way that participants engage, rather
> > > > > > > different than cruising down Highway 66 listening to good ole opry at
> > > > > > > 95 dB. Check out www.radiophony.com for what we actually did in
> > > > > > > 2002/2003, for a song, not an arm and a leg. It hasn't been updated,
> > > > > > > but nowadays your local 'reporters' can plug in using Bluetooth for
> > > > > > > 'free', up to a max distance of 3 km.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Technically speaking such hybrid networks aren't allowed. So what? Are
> > > > > > > you thinking of setting up stations to enhance local communities with
> > > > > > > local 'vocies', or to win brownie points with the government? What
> > > > > > > they don't know in India covers just about everything under the sun.
> > > > > > > Why go out of your way to tell them?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 6/30/07, freeman murray <fcmurray at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > Hi Vickram,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > DSH is a non-profit I work with
> > > > > > > > that creates educational content
> > > > > > > > working with good schools in
> > > > > > > > urban centers and then distributes
> > > > > > > > it to rural schools - typically via CD
> > > > > > > > but they are interested in getting into
> > > > > > > > low power radio.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The information they've found about
> > > > > > > > doing community radio in India is very
> > > > > > > > discouraging (see below) do you have
> > > > > > > > any other information ?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > thanks
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > freeman
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > > > > > > > From: Randolph Wang <rywang at cs.princeton.edu>
> > > > > > > > Date: Jun 29, 2007 8:02 AM
> > > > > > > > Subject: (dsh-hubs) radio rules: bad news
> > > > > > > > To: DSH Hubs <dsh-hubs at googlegroups.com>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I just called up the Sridhar dude myself.  If this route is the only
> > > > > > > > route, then we're screwed :)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The big elephant in the room that no one has told us so far is that
> > > > > > > > the gov charges Rs20K of "spectrum fee" PER MONTH!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > He says don't expect to run a community radio without $1000 per month!
> > > > > > > >  And said this is nothing.  (I begged to differ about the "nothing"
> > > > > > > > but Khomeini warned me not to pick fights with people :)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I don't know what the gov's definition of "community radio" is but
> > > > > > > > this is most certainly not what we have in mind.  They are talking
> > > > > > > > about a 15KM-radius, making money through ads, and rules about studios
> > > > > > > > and such.  If this is a "community radio," I don't know what the
> > > > > > > > difference is from a "regular" radio station.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You have to apply for 5 separate licenses, from different
> > > > > > > > bureaucracies, starting with an application form that requires 12
> > > > > > > > copies.  You have to buy your transmitter from specially sanctioned
> > > > > > > > desi vendors.  If you want to import a transmitter, you get some more
> > > > > > > > fun with applying for equipment certification or what not---more fun
> > > > > > > > paperwork.  You can apply as an NGO or as a school.  If you apply as
> > > > > > > > an NGO, he says you're screwed.  So you apply as a school that's
> > > > > > > > supported by the gov somehow.  If all goes well and you're lucky,
> > > > > > > > you're on the air about 7 months after the initial application.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The trek starts at:
> > > > > > > > http://mib.nic.in/
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This is a long mail of saying something very simple:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > WE ARE PHUCKED!!   :)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > As far as I'm concerned, this notion that community radio is allowed
> > > > > > > > and, indeed, "encouraged" by the gov is a joke.  If this is
> > > > > > > > encouragement, I don't know what discouragement is.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That's a shame, because I was just getting excited about the
> > > > > > > > possibilities opened up by the combination of a small-radius radio
> > > > > > > > broadcast "downlink" and SMS- or cellphone voice- uplink.  This is
> > > > > > > > brilliant because the conventional cellphone-to-cellphone is just an
> > > > > > > > isolated point-to-point link, but in the radio+cellphone combination,
> > > > > > > > you're literally talking to *THE CLOUD*.  "Talking to the cloud,"
> > > > > > > > especially when the cloud has "storage" inside and can "remember"
> > > > > > > > things said in the past, is what the Internet is about.  The nature of
> > > > > > > > the beast actually fundamentally requires a small radius, and have the
> > > > > > > > different small-radius circles "networked" with each other to create
> > > > > > > > an interesting hybrid network on top of which you can do funky
> > > > > > > > applications.  (The small-radius is actually the key to local
> > > > > > > > relevancy and not creating an unreasonable bottleneck at the "base
> > > > > > > > station.")  This is fundamentally different from what they have in
> > > > > > > > mind about a traditional ad-supported conventionally-staffed 15km
> > > > > > > > radio station.  This won't be the first time when rules designed for
> > > > > > > > an old-tech old-world are fundamentally hampering innovation in a new
> > > > > > > > world.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > We should have done more careful homework about these stupid rules way
> > > > > > > > ahead of time instead of just believing that "radio is allowed."  The
> > > > > > > > fault is mine.  On the other hand, it's probably a blessing that we
> > > > > > > > didn't know about the rules and went ahead with the thinking anyhow
> > > > > > > > that has occurred in the past couple weeks since Kurtis arrived: if we
> > > > > > > > knew the rules earlier on, we might have not even bothered with the
> > > > > > > > thinking :)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Anyways, Khomeini is investigating whether there are other routes.
> > > > > > > > And there's always the possibility of doing this in another country...
> > > > > > > >  but the "other" countries may have their own stupid rules and the
> > > > > > > > cellphone network is not likely as developed as the one here...  But
> > > > > > > > if we can demonstrate success in a foreign country, there's always the
> > > > > > > > possibility of coming back here to influence policy changes...  After
> > > > > > > > all, India is a real democracy and the current rule is already an
> > > > > > > > improvement.  (The dude told me that a couple years ago, he had to
> > > > > > > > apply for 33 licenses for a single station!!)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > We'll see...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Vickram
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Vickram
> > > >
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